Magic the Gathering: d20 System

mithrawnudo

First Post
In a stunningly nerdy move, I am attempting (and actually working on currently) a D20 system based on Magic the Gathering. I foresee this move relegating me to the underworld of even this board. However, in an attempt to solicit help or to in order to boost my self-esteem, I am asking for and offering a few things. These are in order of most wanted to least wanted.

HELP:
1. With the rules. - I would like to ask anyone who can or wants to help me with the rules for the game. Not just the over-rules but the more obscure ones, like when you counter a spell, if or how should the countered wizard be able to nullify the spell.
2. Making monsters. - This one is a biggie. It will most likely be the easiest part, but with the number of creatures covered and the limits of my time, I can't make many at a time.
3. Balancing things. - Spells, creatures, abilities/feats.
4. Making spells. - Same as monsters.
5. Anything else you can think of. - Criticism or whatever.

OFFERING:
1. Everything that I've done so far.

Thanks for anyone who wants to contribute or wants the material.
 

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Since M:tG and D&D became the property of the same company, there has been some crossover between the respective systems. I suggest you take a closer look at 3Ed, 3.5, d20Modern and 4Ed for some inspiration.

I'm not saying they did everything exactly the same or nailed it so that your work would be redundant. I'm just saying there is mutual influence. Some ideas that migrated from Magic have fairly different rates of success & usefulness in D&D. Counterspelling, for example, is MUCH more successful in Magic than D&D.

That said...

How closely do you want to model your RPG after Magic? Remember, Magic is a mana based game (easy to model) that involves a lot of summoning (easy), direct attacks (easy), defenses (easy), disruption of your opponent's plans & tactics (moderate) and environmental alterations (easy) in order to take down a single archmage (tough).

In a sense, that last bit makes me think a bit more of an early OoP WotC product, The Primal Order. (RPGnet : The Inside Scoop on Gaming)

IOW, the perspectives of M:tG and D&D are radically different. Magic focuses on a powerful, almost semi-divine caster, whereas D&D is centered around participants who would- in a sense- be the creatures summoned by a M:tG caster...
 

Not claiming to have read all the Magic Books that came with the fat packs, but the Timespiral set at minimum shows that there are just regular people in the Magic Universe. The d20 game would focus on a semi-regular character.

For example in the card game, you play a Steward of Valeron, in the game, you would be the Steward, and the summoner would be Valeron's leader or whatnot. The game would focus not on the Planeswalkers who can summon, but the individuals who make up the army or forces or whatever.

And like in DND you are not a god or a dragon or the MtG analogue of a planeswalker, but an above average Joe that has decided to adventure.

So the biggest concern I think is nullified.
 

It really depends on what you want to do exactly.

With some dozens of sets out there, many with entirely different themes and backgrounds, I don't know that you would want to try to cover more than one block of them...if that.

Of course, you may just want to start from the most fundamental part of Magic, the color wheel, mana, and such. Addressing that would seem to be the most important part to me. Figuring out the magic is going to be key. Especially if you want to have magic sourced as part of whatever you're doing.

A lot of things, like creatures are already existent, or really just a matter of putting together templates, so I wouldn't worry about them that much.
 

It really depends on what you want to do exactly.

With some dozens of sets out there, many with entirely different themes and backgrounds, I don't know that you would want to try to cover more than one block of them...if that.

Of course, you may just want to start from the most fundamental part of Magic, the color wheel, mana, and such. Addressing that would seem to be the most important part to me. Figuring out the magic is going to be key. Especially if you want to have magic sourced as part of whatever you're doing.

A lot of things, like creatures are already existent, or really just a matter of putting together templates, so I wouldn't worry about them that much.

The place would be in a new land I have made up, allowing me to cover all the blocks. I have the mana and the wheel already figured, kinda.

However I wouldn't convert a whole block at a time, it would be on a need basis, as in if I need a damage spell, convert Volcanic Hammer, or a counter, Spell Snip, or whatever.
 

The place would be in a new land I have made up, allowing me to cover all the blocks.

I'm not sure that's it's a good idea to try to cover all the blocks at once, but eh, that's on you.

I have the mana and the wheel already figured, kinda.

Ok, have you shared what you've done anywhere? Did I miss a link? And what about other concepts that are basic to the game? Drawing cards, libraries, discard, are pretty basic to magic, and while you could handwave around some of them, it would be important to do it as a baseline thing, so everybody would know where you'd be starting from.

However I wouldn't convert a whole block at a time, it would be on a need basis, as in if I need a damage spell, convert Volcanic Hammer, or a counter, Spell Snip, or whatever.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about damage spells too much, it's nothing not in the game as it were, already. Same might be applicable to life loss, which you could distinguish as willpower versus fortitude if you wanted. Now something like Cycling, Cascade, Storm, those might be harder to handle. Some of the more melee oriented ones, like lifelink, first strike and flanking could be easy enough though.

Could be worth checking the list of keywords over for things you'd want to cover.
 

A question: how much of d20 ruleset are you trying to alter to go for mtg flavor? For example, do you want to keep vancian spell system because it's familiar to d&d players or do you want to change it to something like mtg card drawing becuase it's more faithful to the card game?

I'm currently working on a d20 ruleset of my own, mostly simplifying and streamlining rules where I feel they could be improved, I can share it if you're interested. My ruleset has no world of its own but I love the MtG setting.
 

Ok, have you shared what you've done anywhere? Did I miss a link? And what about other concepts that are basic to the game? Drawing cards, libraries, discard, are pretty basic to magic, and while you could handwave around some of them, it would be important to do it as a baseline thing, so everybody would know where you'd be starting from.

The basics of Magic are from the point-of-view of a Planeswalker, and I want this campaign to be from the view of a random person in the Magic Universe. The real reason I wanted to do this is that I think that the Magic creatures and spells have a nice intricate lore that could be built into a cohesive story.

For the mana, the DnD spell's costs would just be effectively replaced as mana. As in the material components.


Yeah, I wouldn't worry about damage spells too much, it's nothing not in the game as it were, already. Same might be applicable to life loss, which you could distinguish as willpower versus fortitude if you wanted. Now something like Cycling, Cascade, Storm, those might be harder to handle. Some of the more melee oriented ones, like lifelink, first strike and flanking could be easy enough though.

Could be worth checking the list of keywords over for things you'd want to cover.

Lifelink would be an effect added onto a weapon or whatever. A lifelink of +1 allows for up to one health to be gained from a hit.

Trample of +1 would be a +1 on the attack roll and +1 on the damage roll.

First Strike is an increase in iniative.

Wither does damage to weapons also.

Double strike of +1 adds +1 on the damage roll, and adds first strike's effects.

Shroud can't be targets of spells and abilities.

Flying would most likely be ignored along with Reach.

Deathtouch would also most likely be ignored or given only to high level NPCs.
 

The basics of Magic are from the point-of-view of a Planeswalker

Some yes, but they are fundamentals, and deciding what you're going to do (and yes, it can be ignoring them), is something you should do upfront.

The real reason I wanted to do this is that I think that the Magic creatures and spells have a nice intricate lore that could be built into a cohesive story.

True, but you don't have to involve yourself in other parts of Magic to use it. It's really up to you how far you intend to go. If you really wanted to, you could just borrow the names and not go any further.
 

You can use the d20 System's existing magic rules to some degree as a baseline. 1 mana in MtG terms could be equivalent to one spell level's worth of Spell Points (see the variant rules in the SRD here). Spell Points are essentially a conversion of the psionics "power point" costs to magic; just call Spell Points "mana" (though it must be noted that while a 1st-level spell costs 1 SP to cast, higher-level spells have their cost increase in 2-point increments; a 2nd-level spell costs 3 SP, a 3rd-level spell costs 5 SP, etc.).

Lightning Bolt? A 1st-level spell. The 3 damage might instead be 3d6 in D&D terms, to a single target (or maybe a 5-foot radius spread); sure, that's better than a Magic Missile or Burning Hands, but it doesn't scale up with level, so it isn't too overpowered (but really, Shock would be a better example of a 1st-level spell; 2d6 damage, no scaling). Summoning Grizzly Bears? A 2nd-level spell that summons maybe 1d2 black bears (1d2 is generally represented with a d4 roll, with rolls of 3 = 1 and 4 = 2), maybe just 1 bear, probably short duration (1 round per level or maybe just 2 rounds period? A Planeswalker would just be an epic-level character with a Planeswalker template, who would be using the equivalent of metamagic feats (Automatic Extend Spell or Automatic Persistent Spell) to make the summoning last longer). Etc.

Just keep in mind that Planeswalker casting times, spell effects, durations, and such are on a different scale from mortal spellcasters. Just bceause a spell or creature is "permanent" in MtG doesn't mean that it will be so when cast by a normal mage; only a Planeswalker likely has enough juice (in the form of metamagic feats and spell slots above 9th-level) to make a lot of spells permanent. A normal mage casting the same spells will just get a limited duration and lower effect (not all those epic spell-boosting feats and buffing spells and template benefits and whatnot).

Though even normal mages can cast some permanent spells; they're just weaker than the permanent spells a Planeswalker would toss around. And enchantments, for example, cast by normal mages would probably have a duration measured in rounds, aside from a rare few (for example, permanent light-producing spells are common in some places of MtG's settings, but they seem to require expensive material components or something to make them permanent, since they're only used in some richer places).

Using stuff from the SRD here, you would probably do well to apply Magic Ratings and Spell Points to emulate an MtG feel. Even non-casters should get Magic Ratings, though they do no good unless the character multiclasses into a spellcasting class (because everyone in MtG has a natural attunement to the mana around them, and the longer they live somewhere or whatever, the more mana gets attuned to them).

You can assign a color to each Spell Point (i.e. each point of mana); say that the PC chooses how much of their mana is of what color, but they should at least have visited an appropriate area beforehand. I.E. wizard A levels up and gets some new SP/mana, 3 points let's say; he has traveled through a marshland and spent some time in a big city since his last level, so maybe he chooses for 2 or his new mana to be Black and the last 1 to be White mana, or maybe he chooses for all 3 to be White mana, or whatever. Each spell would, of course, require mana of a particular color to cast (and some would require any kind of mana for part of their cost, as normal in MtG).

The standard Sorcerer, plus the Battle Sorcerer variant can represent your spellcasters, while replacing their spell lists with MtG spell lists, but it's probably best to just make your own spellcasting classes that better fit the theme and whatnot. Probably a spellcasting scholar of some kind, a warrior-mage of some kind, and a warrior with just a bit of magic. Or you might very well just use the Generic Classes from the SRD to simplify things, and it would fit to some extent. Though Barbarians, Rogues, and a few other classes would probably still be around as well. Note that the class-features-as-bonus-feats list in that section is ONLY for generic-class bonus feat options; other classes can't take those feats and nobody can take tham as normal feats for level advancement, they have to be taken as bonus feats from the generic classes, if they're taken at all.

Note that counterspelling in MtG requires particular spells made for that purpose. They don't necessarily require identifying the spell (some only work against particular types of spell, which would then require a Spellcraft check to identify it before countering) and they don't require a dispel check; they just work automatically when you cast them. Probably have a casting time of 1 immediate action, but note that if you use an immediate action on your own turn, it just uses up your swift action for that turn, so you could use another immediate action too, but it would use up your swift action for the next round (and that's the limit of how many you can use).

So no big counterspell wars would occur, but if you cast a standard-action spell for example, then your opponent tries to counter with an immediate-action Counterspell, and you counter his counter with an immediate-as-swift-action Arcane Denial, then you would still get your standard-action spell off without a problem, and could still cast your own Logic Knot or other counter on your opponent's turn when they cast something (but then you'd have no swift or immediate action left to use during your own next turn).

I'll post whatever I have in this vein later, if I get around to finishing any of it (I have a bunch of Kavu partially statted up, and will get around to statting up other MtG critters for D&D/d20 at some point). However, one important thing to note: if you try to make this project a for-profit thing, or even just to publish it freely as a PDF or something else, Wizards of the Coast WILL issue a Cease and Desist order on you if they notice (AFAIK they did that to Michael Morris' "Dusk" material that was around here some years ago, because he based it on MtG, though he did change it around some at least).
 

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