Dinopriminals and Phantasy Prehistorium (Nym/Omarka)

[xidoraven]

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[xidoraven]

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[xidoraven]

Change of heart in naming: I decided that since the Gomphothere-dinoprim is going to be a culmination of mastodon, mammoth, and gomphothere, it should be called "Proboscidal" for the family of Proboscidea. It will have shovel-tusks like the Amebelodon, straight-pointed tusks like Platybelodon, and long inwardly curved tusks like a Mastodon. I know that's too much, but that was what I wanted: over the top. I had considered giving it downward-pointing chin horns like Deinotherium, but ultimately decided against it in favor of the shovel-tusks of Amebelodon's lower jaws.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

I've only given each a cursory glance so far, and the only immediate problem I see with the Lambeonal is that its special attack is called Deafening Bellow in the special attacks line but Resounding Wail in the Combat entry.

Also, I think these two sentences of the Ceratopsinal description need a little work:

Originally Posted by xidoraven

A torosaurus is about 18 feet tall (16 feet long on all fours, and 14 when on all fours), and weighs around 6 tons. They are almost always found wearing? masterwork breastplate armor made for them by humanoid blacksmiths or even self-made or made by other esteemed craftsman ceratopsinals.

I have nothing against the name change.

[GrayLinnorm]

Shout seems like an appropriate SLA for the ceratopsinal.

[xidoraven]

Originally Posted by InsanePsychoRabbit

I've only given each a cursory glance so far, and the only immediate problem I see with the Lambeonal is that its special attack is called Deafening Bellow in the special attacks line but Resounding Wail in the Combat entry.

Also, I think these two sentences of the Ceratopsinal description need a little work:


I have nothing against the name change.

WHOOPS. :P Thanks for that. Before anything gets published at any level, I will likely have to go through each of these and recreate the stats to make sure they are correctly formulated. I realized this as soon as I went back and realized that I included a size modifier to the Lambeonal's AC and not attacks.... Great eyes, Rabbit.

Welcome, GrayLinnorm! Excellent suggestion, thanks. Feel free to dive into those SLAs on both the previously posted ones... I simply copied the lists from Equinal and Ursinal (Book of Exalted Deeds) for now... They should be more specific, however - and shout is a good one for it, indeed.

Anyone else reviewed the sigilry document yet? I am going to need to post it somewhere and get a few people (familiar with creating/balancing D&D stat concepts) to look it over and let me know their concerns and considerations, since I am piecing it together from my own thoughts and two other sources: 'Inscribe Rune' feat from the Feat Compendium, and 'Cerilonian Glyphs' from Dragon Compendium, Vol. I. I am doing good so far on my own with it, but it's too integral to the creature concept and player application for the campaign setting to make it flimsy and hope for the best....

We're doing great so far! The higher HD creatures seem to be the most challenging, which is funny, because you'd expect it to be a simple, "What super-awesome abilities do I want to give this one?" Definitely not that simple... :P

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

I missed one thing about the ceratopsinal, it says "A torosaurus is about 18 feet tall..."
Also, the Lambeonal's feat line says "Ability Focus (deafening bellow) rather than "Ability Focus (resounding wail)

I've given the SLAs some consideration and I've come up with the following revised lists.

Lambeonal's Spell-like Abilities: At will – aid, command, detect evil, detect magic, detect thoughts, dispel magic, hold monster, magic circle against evil (self only), magic missile, see invisibility, shatter, sound burst; 3/day – heal, neutralize poison, remove disease, shout; 1/day – holy word, slow, wall of stone. Caster level 16. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Ceratopsinal's Spell-like Abilities: At will – command, daylight, detect evil, detect magic, detect thoughts, hold monster, light, magic circle against evil (self only), magic missile, see invisibility; 3/day – flame strike, greater magic fang; 1/day – holy word, sunburst. Caster level 18. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

[xidoraven]

I changed both of those text edits, and included the bonus in the save DC for Lambeonal's Resounding Wail.

My thoughts on those SLAs (and these are only considerations):
Since lambeonal has a sonic attack, shout is not as necessary for them, and in fact it was better suited to Gray's recommendation for the ceratopsinal. Also, based on the extra HD and less sigil feats, the ceratopsinal should rationally have more SLAs than the lambeonal since the lambeonal has a lot more potential diversity in sigilry - potentially being able to recreate those same effects as Effect Sigils (either less often than SLAs performed at will, and more often than SLAs performed 1/day or 3/day). Sigils can be repeated once every 1d4 rounds (and additional time with more complex sigils, but still more often than even 3/day SLAs).

So those are my thoughts. I will have to look them over once more, but aside from that discrepancy, I see no huge problems with them. I see Lambeonals as being less combat oriented as well - more like battle-ready archivists of mystic lore and sigilry. Thoughts?

Btw, I keep updating the first posting on this thread, much as was done by InsanePixie did with the first post on the Dinosaur Menagerie on WotC forums until he left - that way we have an easy to find index of stuff. It includes the link to the other thread I set up for reviewing and revising dinos from around the web.
-will

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Originally Posted by xidoaven

I see Lambeonals as being less combat oriented as well - more like battle-ready archivists of mystic lore and sigilry. Thoughts?

Perfect! It sounds like you've come up with a neat theme for it.

Coming up with a theme for each creature is part of my design process, too. I come up with a theme (like healer, shocktrooper, tank, etc), then I build the creature's spell-like abilities and special abilities around that theme (of course referencing the original creature's abilities as well). After I've come up with theme spell-like abilities, I look at the original guardinal's spell-like abilities and use them to flesh out the spell-like abilities I already have.

Te reason I gave the Lambeonal more SLAs than the ceratopsinal is that I'm making a generic, non-sigilry-using version for my own purposes, and I loved the archivist/lore-keeper archetype and wanted to keep that in my personal version. If you want different SLAs, or more or fewer SLAs for the sigilry-using versions, that's OK with me.

Also, can we call the Ceratopsinal something else, like Triceronal?

[xidoraven]

Originally Posted by InsanePsychoRabbit

Also, can we call the Ceratopsinal something else, like Triceronal?

I was ruminating on the following variations:
Triceranal, Triceradal, Tricerapal, Tricerapsal, Tricerotal, Ceratonal, Ceratopsal, Ceranal
Listen to them out loud and consider. Maybe GrayLinnorm could also opinionate. I'm unsure, both specifically about your suggestion, as well as which of all of them all are best understandable and pronouncable, as well as at least a little catchy. This is supposed to be the brute along with the other two armored dinopriminals (anky and steg) - and most intimidating and boisterous. Maybe I am leaving out a potential Rage ability - or one that I can include as an Effect Sigil. Plus, I am really just guesstimating the CRs and LAs.... I think they are balanced enough for near-epic campaigns, but I wouldn't really be able to tell unless it was play-tested, which is out of the question atm.

Also, if you want to supplement the Lambeonal in another way and keep the concept, try adding Secret and Lore class special abilities from the Loremaster PrC in the DMG instead of some of the Sigilry feats - in addition to a few extra SLAs to keep them powerful enough to hold strong against a force of demons or other outsiders, and epic or near-epic beings. Always more potential than the guardinals - the dinopriminals should in many ways be larger than life, and emblem-like paragons of the dino/prim races they embody and shepherd.

I am excited to see what is in store for us with the Psittaco-one, and have a great set of imagery for inspiration - I will have to go get them in a pdf, but many were easily found on Google. I also noticed that you have a knack for finding the hi-quality pix of those dinosaur cards (the stylish illustrations that I am unsure of their nature, but I believe they are some sort of playing card or dino trivia deck). I always find grainy small copies of them, and always less than the ones you have salvaged...

The only concept I didn't really emulate through the creature well was the Dimorphinal, which I had hoped to have somewhat sylvan, druidic, or bard-like spells/abilities, so that they might in some social ways be the performers or joy-causers of dinopriminal culture, especially when dealing with other good-aligned sentient races. I try to think of them as being a whole culture, and not segmented, as well as being diverse when compared - so they might make a really good and interesting line-up as an illustration if possible. That's why I kind of like the idea of some of them being bipedal, and others quadrupedal, while some have a tendency to both in different circumstances.

We are making great time on it so far, and I am gonna be out for a bit doing this estimate and proposal - probably until Tues or so... Hopefully then I can tag out one or two more in a jiffy and I can take a little time to post an index here on the dino/prim reviews/revisions.

[GrayLinnorm]

I think ceratopsinal is fine.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

I had an idea for the Poseidonal. Kind of tying it in with our Mesozoic demon from the Wizards forums.

"Poseidonals are the guardians of the dinopriminal's homelands, gatekeepers who prevent enemies from entering their stronghold. They are few in number, having been born of necessity during an ancient war with the Obyrith demons when the spawn of Ak'chakro tried to force their way into the Beastlands. They rarely leave their home planes except in times of dire emergency."

I also had the idea that they project a protective aura that grants allies fast healing and/or other benefits.

[xidoraven]

I think any of these creatures could have a name change before they are finalized, so I am not ruling that out. A few of them are pretty concrete, but most may be subject to renaming.

You know Rabbit, I had thought about how best to utilize the Poseidonal's size and massive bulk as a definitive factor in how they fit in within the culture and in other areas as visitors. I had considered some kind of massive effect centered around them like you suggest, but I also wanted to tie them into some of the ideas I had with the original dinosaur, the sauroposeidon. I wanted them to stand out as the dinosaurs most often trained and led in coastal areas as creatures which could slowly move around in moderately deep coastal waters and carry soldiers with potential ranged weapons and spell effects. Based on that idea, I think having the Poseidonal do something similarly helpful and coastline-oriented would also be great, as well as a potential protective field of some kind of effect. So I agree with your suggestion.

Also, I have no problem tying in the demonic creature being developed with bhu - I will edit that text to be more directly related to the campaign needs (they would not have been a direct result of the obyrith, but they would most certainly have been a major force in defending against extraplanar attacks on Nym (dinopriminal homelands). I would do it tonight, but I am super tired and uninspired at the moment. :P Also, now that my presentation is done, I will have some more time to devote to these guys again.

You know, after thinking: if every animal that breathes air gets scent as a SQ, shouldn't any dinopriminal and guardinal as well? Also, I think it is in our best interests to try and get bhu to join us here with that line of thinking.

You must really like that little blurb about the sentient dinosaur dying and being turned into a bunch of demons, huh? It's funny because I don't get much time to write down thoughts like that, even though they come out so easily and lucidly in my mind.... Something tells me you would really like to play in my games, which end up usually having wicked cool elements like that come in to really turn the story up a notch. Just imagine if you ended up in a hellish dungeon somewhere, only to find that this carnosaur was in fact regaining his strength with the help of minions... I know exactly how to tune up a sleepy storyline. hehehehe

[xidoraven]

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[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Interesting. I had the idea of Parodinals being empathic. I also gave them mind blades, but in exchange didn't give them natural weapons.

I have the parodinal almost finished. The actual game statistics are completed, I just want to add to the flavor text. As they are, they're not especially good at combat (when compared to creatures with the same Hit Dice), but they make up for it with their healing and social-related abilities (empathy, high Diplomacy/Sense Motive skills, calm emotions).