Proposal: PH2 and SORCERER

[fireinthedust]

so I'm told PH2 isn't approved yet. I would really, really like to play a sorcerer and I'd like to do it yesterday.
Basically my Wizard isn't coming out wizardy: he's a great guy and people like him, and boy does he like exploding people, but he's... well, just not wizardy (especially compared to the other Wizard in the group, who reads books and stuff). My original hope was to go elemental tempest, and get all sorts of energy types whenever I wanted, but waiting until level 11... well, anyway, starting with a Wild Mage solves all of these as well as many other problems.

I hereby propose the entirety of PH2, as well as the feat Reaper's Strike.

[Atanatotatos]

I... suppose we can start talking about it. How lon till it can be approved?
Did anything spot something we should change? In the other thread, I proposed the idea that we might scrap the expertise feats and just give a cumulative +1 bonus to hit at 5th, 15th, and 25th level to all characters.

[renau1g]

Release date was March 17, therefore 3 months afterwards is 6/17, which is probably how long the discussion will take to finalize.

[JoeNotCharles]

I propose giving a free Expertise feat at Level 5 rather than a blanket +1 bonus - I like the flavour of concentrating on a particular type of weapon or implement.

[fireinthedust]

Wait, could we skip the additional things we want to change until we've discussed the stuff we have to drop? I think we should limit the discussion to things we have to avoid, and then we can say "hey, let's change this" as a follow-up.

I'd say the main things are:

1) Races: I can't think of anything myself right away; maybe later have an option allowing gnome wizards something other than the racial cantrip (ie: additional effect), but for now everything looks ok to me. I haven't combed over it in depth, however.

2) Classes: anything that's "just too good" that WOTC feels is good enough for the character builder? I mean, like Spellscars, or the Dark Pact warlock?

3) Feats: Anything gross that we don't think is good for Living 4th?

4) Backgrounds: Can we have them along with the ones for Daunton, Jade Empire, etc.?


I'd like to pass when we can, and *then* do additional stuff. I'm not against scrapping Expertise feats, but rather saving that for the additional approval phase. (hope I'm doing this right; I should have used the model UN for more than hitting on girls. grr.)

[TwoHeadsBarking]

We have like, two weeks before PHB2 can be added to the charter. Even if the judges said "Yup, looks good." right now you still wouldn't be able to play a sorcerer until the 17th. We have time to talk things over.

Regarding gnome wizards, Ghost Sound from the class is a Standard At-will, Ghost Sound from the race is an Minor Encounter. So while gnome wizards don't get quite as much from their race as, say, gnome bards, I don't think this really needs changing.

I have no thoughts at this time on classes or feats. Except for Expertise, which I don't like. At high levels it's too good not to take, and at low levels it makes many feats with more conditional attack bonuses silly. Why should I take Reckless Curse/Combat Reflexes/Oncoming Storm when I can take Expertise? Oh sure, I could eventually take both, but clearly Expertise is the winner here, with the (in my opinion) more interesting feat only being taken if I have room.

Regarding the new backgrounds, I think we should ignore them. I really like the flavor of the regional ones we have.

You should start a separate proposal for Dragon 372 if you want Reaper's Strike.

[renau1g]

Agreed, leave the background feats out for now, if ppl want individual ones, propose them in a seperate thread with the flavour for the setting.

[Atanatotatos]

Ah, yeah! No background bonuses.

[JoeNotCharles]

I disagree - the PHB2 backgrounds are more generic than the setting's backgrounds, and I don't believe they're any more powerful (tends to be +2 to a skill across the board IIRC, while our backgrounds are generally +1 to a skill and a higher bonus in very specific circumstances). They'd be good for someone from a Far Land that's not already specified.

[Oni]

Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles

I disagree - the PHB2 backgrounds are more generic than the setting's backgrounds, and I don't believe they're any more powerful (tends to be +2 to a skill across the board IIRC, while our backgrounds are generally +1 to a skill and a higher bonus in very specific circumstances). They'd be good for someone from a Far Land that's not already specified.

Agree with this, adding perception to your skill list is about the most powerful thing you can wring out of them and I think they work well in adding a little variety without stepping on the settings toes at all.

[TwoHeadsBarking]

I think the PHB2 backgrounds are a little more powerful, actually. Not because of the numbers, but because of the flexibility. The Kingdom of Jade bonus of +1 Insight, +2 social Bluff measures very well against a PHB2 +2 Bluff, but what if you don't care about Bluff? What if you wanted Stealth, or Perception? Then clearly the PHB2 is the way to go, especially since instead of getting +2 to a skill you can add it to your class list. This is huge. I'd love to get Stealth or Perception as class skills, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm less than impressed with the option to learn another language, though.

Regardless, I'm not against the PHB2 backgrounds because of balance. I'm against them because, as you said, they're generic. Also, right now any Dauntonian has a little something in common with all Dauntonians. If we replaced our current backgrounds with choose-your-own PHB2 ones, that's not going to remain the case.

That being said, I like the idea of characters from non-defined Far Lands having +2 to an appropriate skill (maybe not requiring a proposal, either). I just don't think any character from a currently defined area should have a PHB2-esque background, and I worry that if we give Far-Landers a choice of where they get their +2, we're going to see a disproportionately large amount of them. But perhaps that's not a bad thing.

Edit: I take back that last part about the worrying. I now doubt it would be anything resembling a problem.

[renau1g]

Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking

I think the PHB2 backgrounds are a little more powerful, actually. Not because of the numbers, but because of the flexibility. The Kingdom of Jade bonus of +1 Insight, +2 social Bluff measures very well against a PHB2 +2 Bluff, but what if you don't care about Bluff? What if you wanted Stealth, or Perception? Then clearly the PHB2 is the way to go, especially since instead of getting +2 to a skill you can add it to your class list. This is huge. I'd love to get Stealth or Perception as class skills, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm less than impressed with the option to learn another language, though.

Regardless, I'm not against the PHB2 backgrounds because of balance. I'm against them because, as you said, they're generic. Also, right now any Dauntonian has a little something in common with all Dauntonians. If we replaced our current backgrounds with choose-your-own PHB2 ones, that's not going to remain the case.

That being said, I like the idea of characters from non-defined Far Lands having +2 to an appropriate skill (maybe not requiring a proposal, either). I just don't think any character from a currently defined area should have a PHB2-esque background, and I worry that if we give Far-Landers a choice of where they get their +2, we're going to see a dissproportionately large amount of them. But perhaps that's not a bad thing.

The farlanders are coming, the farlanders are coming....

like I said (in a roundabout way) before if letting them the PHB2 bg's in play it's allowing power creep to come into he game. Sure I'd love to take the +2 perception bg vs the +1 bonus and circumstantial bonus. Why not? I still say you can propose any background you want from the PHB2, but it should follow the rest of the L4W standards, a +1 static bonus and a +1 circumstantial bonus. It's not fair to allow a better bonus for no reason at all. I can't think of a rationale that would make sense for it.

[Ozymandias79]

remember that adding a skill to your class list doesn't mean you are trained in it, only that you can choose to be trained in it when you chooses your trained skills

Ozy79

[covaithe]

Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles

I propose giving a free Expertise feat at Level 5 rather than a blanket +1 bonus - I like the flavour of concentrating on a particular type of weapon or implement.

Hmm... I do prefer this, and am inclined to vote yes. Question: can the character ever change their expertise type? E.g. can this free feat be retrained as with other feats?

Originally Posted by fireinthedust

I hereby propose the entirety of PH2, as well as the feat Reaper's Strike.

I'd like to vote yes on PHB2, with the caveat that it won't come into effect until the 17th. But I don't really want to lump it in with Reaper's strike. Can you please propose them separately?

[Atanatotatos]

Like Oni said, Echoes of Thunder feat should give a typed bonus. I'd suggest power.
Also, I don't like the idea of introducing generic background. The ones we have here add a little bit of local identification to characters. What we should do, if we want, is add more of them IMO.