As far as being Striker-heavy, so are the available classes. 3 out of 8 classes in the PHB1, and 3/8 of the PHB2, 6/17 overall (6/18 if you include the artificer). The classes could be totally equally represented in L4W and we'd still be striker-heavy.
My second character is likely to be a controller (druid, maybe elf, dwarf, warforged, or human) or a controller-y striker (dragonborn cosmic sorcerer, servant of of the Celestial Dragon - an interpretation of Joven, likely - from the Empire of Jade, all blast/burst powers).
__________________ Gary Hoggatt - www.garyh.net "Such heroic nonsense..."
LS, your chart of races and classes is interesting.
I was thinking that it would be cool if people added wiki category tags to their character sheets for race, class, and background/area of origin. Then you could easily figure out the number of wizards, or the number of PC's from the Valley of Bone, by just looking up the category.
I guess it's probably too late for that now... We could start adding them as we go forward, but maybe it's not worth it.
Hmmm... maybe it would be a good proposal for the 4e Eberron, since characters aren't made there yet...
At which date exactly this book will be avalaible.
I know an unapproved character can enter a game, but need to be approved to gain XP. I have a character that take 2 powers from that book that would like to join a game. So that start to be touchy matter and if I knew the official date, that could help to see if I could use it (after all, if I don't use any power until the date, might be fine if the DM is willing).
__________________ Living ENWorld di Senzio's Magical Shop, the best place to buy and sell magical items in Orussus
Ok, this is coming close to the time we can vote on it, and I'd still like answers on 3 things. All of them are ambiguous so this is a matter of of making our own clear rules, I think.
1. Does forced movement into a power effect trigger it, or not? Do you get a saving throw to avoid this like you do with hazardous terrain?
1a. If we rule that it DOES trigger it, what rule are we going to add to prevent infinite loops using Grease or Planar Gateway?
1b. Related to that, CustServ has stated that "entering" includes forced movement, and "moving" doesn't. This makes no sense whatsoever. We're ignoring that, right?
2. There have been some changes to the Illusion powers we've already approved. Are we going to replace the Dragon versions with the AP versions? If so, does anybody object to any of the changes?
Quote:
Here are the changes Arcane Power (w/errata) makes to the illusion powers from Dragon 364. I've bolded all the nerfs that I consider significant (even if not VERY significant), as opposed to clarifications:
Grasping Shadows: now has the "Zone" keyword
Phantasmal Terrain: now has the "Implement" keyword; increased movement cost for difficult terrain applies to everyone, not just enemies
Spectral Hound: no longer has the "Implement" keyword; must start in an unoccupied square; gives a +1 power bonus to "all defenses" instead of "AC and all defenses" (I think that's the same thing, right?); sustain is reworded to be much clearer
Enemies Abound: "you and your allies treat the target as an ally for the purposes of flanking" instead of "you and your allies can treat the target as an ally..." (I don't think there's any situation where you would choose not to treat someone as an ally for flanking, is there?)
Illusory Wall: can make an attack only when moves adjacent to the wall, not when it starts its turn adjacent; the attack result only effects the enemy for its current turn (used to be "save ends")
3. How the hell does Illusory Wall work (either version)?
Quote:
Suppose there's a wall between square A and square B, and I plan the following actions:
Turn 1: move to square A, attempt to move to square B (assume I fail)
Turn 2...N: attempt to move to square B again (keep trying until I succeed)
Turn N+1: go do things on another part of the battlefield
Turn N+2: move to square B, attempt to move to square A
In the old version:
Turn 1: The caster gets an attack as I move adjacent to the wall. If it succeeds, I can't cross the wall until I make a saving throw. Assume it succeeds, so I can't move to B yet. I get a save at the end of my turn.
Turn 2...N: The caster gets another attack as I start my turn adjacent to the wall. SIX cases:
(1) I passed my save last turn, caster chose not to attack: I can cross the wall but I am still affected
(2) I passed my save last turn, caster attacked and hit: I need to keep saving
(3) I passed my save last turn, caster attacked and missed: I can cross the wall and am no longer affected
(4) I failed my save last turn, caster chose not to attack: I need to keep saving
(5) I failed my save last turn, caster attacked and hit: I need to keep saving (I believe multiple successful attacks don't stack here)
(6) I failed my save last turn, caster attacked and missed: I can cross the wall and am no longer affected
Turn N+2: Return to square B: if I crossed the wall due to case (1), the caster gets a new attack as on turn 1. If I crossed the wall due to case (3) or (6), I can cross immediately
In the new version:
Turn 1: The caster gets an attack as I move adjacent to the wall. If it succeeds, I can't cross the wall this turn. Assume it succeeds, so I can't cross to B yet.
Turn 2...N: The caster does not get an attack, since I didn't move adjacent this turn. Since I wasn't attacked, I can automatically cross to B immediately.
Turn N+2: Return to square B; the caster gets a new attack as on turn 1 since he hasn't missed with an attack yet.
That's way less complicated, but also MUCH weaker - it only delays me by 1 turn at most! And also makes no sense - I can push through the wall without breaking the illusion completely?
A good variant might be the Arcane Power version, but change "Whenever an enemy moves adjacent to the wall" to "Whenever an enemy moves adjacent to or starts its turn adjacent to the wall". That way I'd have no obvious way to move through the wall until the caster fails an attack, which makes me immune to it until the end of the encounter. (Although I could get through the wall by having an ally slide me on his turn, or something similar.)
Here are the answers I'd give, right now:
1. Yes, and yes.
1a. Add a rule saying that if you start inside an effect's area, leaving and reentering the area does not count as "entering" or "moving into".
1b. Yes, CustServ was obviously off it's gourd when they said this. "Entering" and "moving into" mean the same thing.
2. Just replace the Dragon versions with the AP versions. Anyone who dislikes the new version will have two weeks to retrain (for free) after AP is approved.
3. Use the amendment I suggested in the quote.
EDIT: oh, about Grease. This power has a problem that there are many cases where you'd prefer to slide an opponent 2 squares rather than knocking them prone (for instance, if it's cast in a 5 foot wide corridor: if knocked prone, the attacker can just stand up and continue, since you only get an attack when they enter the zone; on a miss you can slide them back out and force them to be attacked again next time they enter.) So there are times when missing is better than hitting. I think a hit should slide 2 squares AND knock prone, while a miss just slides. Except this makes it impossible to move through the grease in the above setup, so it should be explicit that crawling through it has less effect. So, here's my suggested change:
Quote:
Hit: If the target is crawling, slide it 1 square. Otherwise, you knock it prone and slide it 2 squares. Miss: If the target is crawling, no effect. Otherwise, you slide it 2 squares.
Last edited by JoeNotCharles; 18th July 2009 at 03:12 AM..
1. Does forced movement into a power effect trigger it, or not? Do you get a saving throw to avoid this like you do with hazardous terrain?
Yes, forces movement does. No, it's not a terrain and only terrain allows a save.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
1a. If we rule that it DOES trigger it, what rule are we going to add to prevent infinite loops using Grease or Planar Gateway?
Why? People can send people though a cloud of daggers several time now. I can't see an infinite loop with grease and I'm not sure where the other is from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
1b. Related to that, CustServ has stated that "entering" includes forced movement, and "moving" doesn't. This makes no sense whatsoever. We're ignoring that, right?
Correct. That means that forced movement doesn't trigger Dire radiance since they didn't move closer; they were moved closed which is different.
A zone is a zone. Intent isn't needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
2. There have been some changes to the Illusion powers we've already approved. Are we going to replace the Dragon versions with the AP versions? If so, does anybody object to any of the changes?
Most were changed back to the dragon version in the errata.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
3. How the hell does Illusory Wall work (either version)?
Target moves into square adjacent to wall. You make an attack. You hit, the wall is still there. Miss, no more wall for him.
Why? People can send people though a cloud of daggers several time now. I can't see an infinite loop with grease and I'm not sure where the other is from.
Ok, technically Grease isn't an infinite loop - Grease is an auto-hit. If you miss with it, you slide 2 squares, so you just slide them out of the zone and back in, and then you get another attack. If you miss again, repeat until you hit.
Planar Gateway is a power of the Bonded Summoner class. It's not a zone, it's in a single square. When a creature enters a square adjacent to it, you get a free attack that does damage and slides the target. So as long as you keep hitting, you can keep sliding it to different adjacent squares and trigger the attack again. (Ok, so technically still not an infinite loop - it only keeps going as long as you hit.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elecgraystone
Most were changed back to the dragon version in the errata.
No they weren't, I listed the differences that remain in my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elecgraystone
Target moves into square adjacent to wall. You make an attack. You hit, the wall is still there. Miss, no more wall for him.
...and then what happens on the target's next turn? Can he move through the wall or not? It says, "it can try again on later turns," but the only thing that gives an attack is moving adjacent to the wall.
Ok, technically Grease isn't an infinite loop - Grease is an auto-hit.
If it's an issue make it 'slide 2 within the zone.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
Planar Gateway is a power of the Bonded Summoner class.
Change slide into push away from the gateway square.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
No they weren't, I listed the differences that remain in my post.
Ok, let me look...
Grasping Shadows, Phantasmal Terrain and Enemies Abound I don't see an issue with the new powers.
Spectral Hound doesn't have implement because it isn't an attack. A better question is why summon iron cohort still has implement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
...and then what happens on the target's next turn? Can he move through the wall or not? It says, "it can try again on later turns," but the only thing that gives an attack is moving adjacent to the wall.
He has to be missed by the wall to get through it. Now if he gets adjacent to a new square of the wall or he stops being adjacent then goes back, he gets attacked again.
If you wish to add a try again option, make it 'when an enemy move or starts adjacent to the wall'.
If it's an issue make it 'slide 2 within the zone.'
Change slide into push away from the gateway square.
Hmm. On the one hand, I like the flavour of these changes. On the other, they're less powerful than the originals. Another option is to attack the specific problem: add a clause saying the slide "does not trigger this attack again".
On the gripping hand, the fix I suggested would also catch any similar powers that we didn't notice. (But maybe with too many undesired side effects...) Maybe what I just suggested above can be made general: we make a rule that forced movement caused by an attack cannot trigger the same type of attack from the same source again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elecgraystone
Spectral Hound doesn't have implement because it isn't an attack. A better question is why summon iron cohort still has implement.
Heh, good point. I guess that keyword is just completely immaterial for those powers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elecgraystone
He has to be missed by the wall to get through it. Now if he gets adjacent to a new square of the wall or he stops being adjacent then goes back, he gets attacked again.
Ah, that makes sense - you can't get through the wall here so you have to try at a different spot, or at least move away and look at it from a different angle to spot the illusion.
Note, however, that's not what the power says - it explicitly says the enemy "cannot move through the wall on its current turn", and as that's the only thing in the power that says you cannot move through the wall, as written when your turn ends you're free to move through it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elecgraystone
If you wish to add a try again option, make it 'when an enemy move or starts adjacent to the wall'.
That's exactly what I suggested!
However, now that you've explained it I think your version above is what the designers intended. But to actually work that way, the power needs to be amended by changing "on its current turn, but it can try again on later turns" to "until it is attacked again and missed".
Implements may have an effect on the summoning (there a few implements in the Eberron Player's Guide that do), so the use of the keyword is still important. Not sure why it was removed from the other.
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
Hmm. On the one hand, I like the flavour of these changes. On the other, they're less powerful than the originals. Another option is to attack the specific problem: add a clause saying the slide "does not trigger this attack again".
I'm always in favor of changing to pushes instead of slides as you can't loop back with those. It's hard to imagine stepping into a grease spell to slide forward 1 then back one. As for the Gateway, you end up being able to put the target in any of the same spaces. About the only thing you can't do is put them back in the gateway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
we make a rule that forced movement caused by an attack cannot trigger the same type of attack from the same source again.
I don't know how I feel about this. Some power you take just because you can trigger it more than once with a different power. Without that, it's a serious nerf.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
Heh, good point. I guess that keyword is just completely immaterial for those powers.
Yep, I have to scratch my head at some of the ones it gets added to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
Ah, that makes sense - you can't get through the wall here so you have to try at a different spot, or at least move away and look at it from a different angle to spot the illusion.
That's the way it makes sense to me. Granted, it's technically all one wall but moving to a new square and treating it an a new 'wall' works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
Note, however, that's not what the power says - it explicitly says the enemy "cannot move through the wall on its current turn", and as that's the only thing in the power that says you cannot move through the wall, as written when your turn ends you're free to move through it.
Actually it doesn't say what happens on the next turn. We only have what happen on a hit or a miss but not on a pass. So it's not clear what would happen. It doesn't say it can move through on it's next turn but can try. We don't know HOW it can try though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
However, now that you've explained it I think your version above is what the designers intended. But to actually work that way, the power needs to be amended by changing "on its current turn, but it can try again on later turns" to "until it is attacked again and missed".
I'm all for clarifying it. As is, it takes a bit of guesswork and figuring out what makes sense.
I am not in favor of changing a slide to a push, because that is a serious nerf. I've seen people, in RL, slip forward, and backward, on the same surface. sometimes both at once, looks very painful.
There is also no reason to nerf grease or planar gateway.
From the way I read grease. It is a daily power that does no damage, but is an auto-prone for any creature that enters the zone. What is so over powered about that? Who cares if it infinitely loops, it's not much better than getting infinite oregano. My wizards are not likely to be taking this power.
Planar gateway is an encounter attack power, it can't infinitely loop because it can only be done once. If it were at-will, there may be more of an issue. Planar gateway is a power full of suck, for a controller. 3d6 slide 3 is on par with every other wizard paragon path lvl 11 attack power.
Neither are over-powered, or even impressive, for me.
----------------
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
"we make a rule that forced movement caused by an attack cannot trigger the same type of attack from the same source again."
Absolutely opposed to this...
-------------------
As for Illusory Wall, When any enemy moves adjacent to the wall, you can make an attack (EDIT, OUT) against that target; if successful, the target cannot move through the wall on its current turn, but it can try again on later turns.
say that you are successful with your attack.
The enemy starts it's turn adjacent to the wall... The enemy takes his move action to "move through the wall", meaning that the target has taken a move action, AND is adjacent to the wall, perform another (EDIT, OUT) attack against the target... you succeed! rinse... repeat...
No need to change this power either. No the target doesn't have to try a different spot...
Implements may have an effect on the summoning (there a few implements in the Eberron Player's Guide that do), so the use of the keyword is still important. Not sure why it was removed from the other.
Those effects are on the combat stats of the summoned creature{hit, dam, defenses ect} or require the creature to be hit. None of those apply to the hound, so an implement has no effect on the hound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaBaNa
It is a daily power that does no damage, but is an auto-prone for any creature that enters the zone.
Then it should be written as an auto-prone attack to simplify it. Do you really want people rolling multiple attacks to get a prone in the game? 'Here is my links. I had to roll 7 times to get him prone!'
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaBaNa
Planar gateway is an encounter attack power, it can't infinitely loop because it can only be done once. If it were at-will, there may be more of an issue. Planar gateway is a power full of suck, for a controller. 3d6 slide 3 is on par with every other wizard paragon path lvl 11 attack power.
Don't forget that it's a burst and allies can move through ally spaces. So creatures start up in the canter. So one free action 3d6 + int attacks. Now we move the three creatures through the area in a circle, keeping them adjacent to the center square. Every square of movement triggers a free action attack so that's TEN 3d6+int attacks [9 from movement, 1 from starting in the area]! So how is this NOT overpowered? Show me another wizard paragon path lvl 11 attack power that could trigger 28 3d6+int attacks on 9 targets [316 individual attacks]? [every square has an enemy and is moved 3 squares in the area, triggering 3 attacks each, 4 for the center]
It should not be written as an auto-hit, because I may choose to slide the target 2 and leave it at that...
The free action attack you keep doing at-will, is an encounter power. It only happens once in an encounter as a free action. Free action is not equal to At-will...
Those effects are on the combat stats of the summoned creature{hit, dam, defenses ect} or require the creature to be hit. None of those apply to the hound, so an implement has no effect on the hound.
I was thinking about something like the Tome of Forty Steps which requires you to use a summoning power. Now that I look at it, it doesn't specify you have to have used the implement on that power, however. Interesting.
I was actually unclear if Implement enhancements apply to Summoned attacks. The power was done w/ the implement, but the creature is making the final attacks, not you with the implement.
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
It should not be written as an auto-hit, because I may choose to slide the target 2 and leave it at that...
So you want long lines of hit attempts? I know I wouldn't. I've been known to miss many times in a row...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaBaNa
The free action attack you keep doing at-will, is an encounter power. It only happens once in an encounter as a free action. Free action is not equal to At-will...
Please give me a page number for this. As far as I know, any number of free actions can happen in a round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB, #267
Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn.
Now Planar Gateway is a free action triggered by starting in the gateway or moving adjecent to it. Where does it say it can be triggered only once?
I was thinking about something like the Tome of Forty Steps which requires you to use a summoning power. Now that I look at it, it doesn't specify you have to have used the implement on that power, however. Interesting.
yeah, you are right. The one's I look at in the Eberron book say 'the next creature you summon'. So you wouldn't even have to use the implement WHEN you summon. I'll agree. Interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonegod
I was actually unclear if Implement enhancements apply to Summoned attacks. The power was done w/ the implement, but the creature is making the final attacks, not you with the implement.
It doesn't say one way or the other. It just says you make an attack through the creature. I'd take that to mean you use your attack which would include your implement if it's listed as one.
So you want long lines of hit attempts? I know I wouldn't. I've been known to miss many times in a row...
Please give me a page number for this. As far as I know, any number of free actions can happen in a round.
Now Planar Gateway is a free action triggered by starting in the gateway or moving adjecent to it. Where does it say it can be triggered only once?
If you don't want long lines of hit attempts, then don't, slide the target 2 and stop mucking about...
There is nothing concerning about Grease...
The page number for free action does not equal at-will is not needed. At-will, encounter, and daily are frequency of use keywords for powers. Free-action, standard action, move action, and minor action, are the types of actions needed to trigger the use of said power
So an encounter power, that takes a free action to activate... is not an at-will power.
it is still an encounter power. NOT at will.
I can't clarify this any further...
Free actions can be taken any number of times in a round, however the Planar Gateway Attack is an encounter power, and no matter how many times you use a free action to activate it, it will only work once per encounter.
No CaBaNa, the standard action is to create the gateway. The triggered action, which is 100% seperate from the creation action, is a free action. Are you trying to say that one one creature per round can trigger a grease spell or a gateway? That's not what the book says.
Let me put it another way. Why can you only make one OA a round? Because it's an opportunity action and you can only make one per round. Change it to free, and you could make as many in a round as there were triggering events. This works the same way. Since it's not an opportunity action, you can make that attack on EVERY creature that triggers it.
Planar Gateway is separate from Planar Gateway Attack, The Triggered action is 100% separate from the creation action. (which is a standard action) The triggered action is a free action. The triggered action is also an ENCOUNTER POWER! It can only be used once. Yes, you can use a free action all day long, but an encounter power can still only be used once per encounter. just because I can take a standard action next round doesn't mean I can use the same encounter power twice in one encounter.
Grease free action is At-will so it can be done infinitely, but who cares. The end result is either slide 2 or prone. It won't kill anyone, or sway a battle more than any other level 1 wizard at will. I place it inferior to most of the other level 1 wizard dailies.
EDIT: I just realized you aren't being stupid elecgraystone. AP in print doesn't have the designations. If you read the update on AP I think it may mention this. However in the compendium it very specifically lays out that both the original and triggered actions are encounter powers. I think it solves your problem well.
Sorry for being such a dick about it, I didn't realize we were reading separate and conflicting source references...
Last edited by CaBaNa; 20th July 2009 at 10:09 PM..
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