Edited Proposal
At TwoHeadsBarking's suggestion, I've altered the proposal to this:
Allow warlocks to choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.
Original Proposal
My proposal is a simple one. That we allow warlock to be treated like everyone else and let them retrain their at-wills. This isn't technically possible now because WOTC gave the at-wills as class features. I see no reason to treat them differently from everyone else.
With the likely inclusion of the new powers from the PH Heroes Series 1 [3 yes votes vs 0 no votes], a new 'generic' at-will will be here. I'd much rather have Ts'iri keep her Eldritch Blast and retrain her Hellish Rebuke into the new Eldritch Strike instead of the option to switch Eldritch Strike for Eldritch Blast as is being talked about in the PH Heroes Series 1 proposal thread.
I don't like this idea at all, as it's a fundamental change in the way warlocks work. I'll hold my vote until there's some discussion, but I'm inclined to vote no.
On a somewhat related note, what about making Dire Radiance work like Eldritch blast, so you can use either Charisma or Con with it.
Right now, if you want to go Starlock and not tank your AC, Charisma/Int is the way to go. The Dragon article and AP added enough Charisma-based star powers that you rarely need to go to other pacts (I think there are one or two levels where this is not the case) to get your powers. There's even a single ability Starlock paragon path. But you're still stuck with Dire Radiance as one of your two at-wills. Can't train out of it, and you probably won't ever hit with it since you aren't boosting your Con and it's against Fort. So I hope you like Eldritch Blast.
None of the other pacts have to deal with this, since they can all go [primary]/Int. In fact, I don't think that any other class needs to worry about their class feature screwing over their at-wills, assuming intelligent character building. The paladin is in a similar boat, but at least he gets both his at-wills regardless of whether he's going Strength or Charisma.
Oh, and you can't do a pure Starlock with Con/Int, in case you're curious. Not enough powers, so you'll constantly be dabbling in Infernal and Vestige.
If that's the way you guys feel then fine. I just don't see a mechanical or background reason for it myself. A storm magic sorcerer doesn't HAVE to take lightning/thunder at-will. [or the dragon magic one have to take burning spray or the chaos one have to take chaos bolt].
I'd REALLY like to switch out Hellish Rebuke for Eldritch Strike [or just about anything else ]. I love everything else about infernal warlocks but I just despise that power. It's just inferior and redundant to Eldritch Blast [I don't think I've EVER had the extra damage activate and WAY more things are fire resistant! ], so it just sits there, useless. Sigh... I feel like the CHA Starlock that TwoHeadsBarking talked about, having an unused power.
How would you guys feel about a feat to do it then? Eldritch Striker that lets you switch your pact at will with Eldritch Strike? All I'd be getting over melee training is a push 1 and I'd be dropping Hellish Rebuke. Sound fair? You could also make a 'charismatic star lock' feat to change Dire Radiance to using CHA.
As a Starlock I've rarely used Dire Radiance either. I think all the warlock at-wills are inferior to Eldritch Blast except in certain situations.
I do like TwoHeadsBarking's idea, though: it means with the Dark and Vestige pacts, you have two Con-based builds, two Cha-based builds, and one that can completely go either way (instead of one that can have both or lean Con-ward, but not Cha-ward). On the other hand, I like the flavour idea that you need a high constitution to withstand the forces from beyond you're playing with... (But he should propose it separately in a different thread.)
I think all the warlock at-wills are inferior to Eldritch Blast except in certain situations.
I'll disagree with you on that. Eyebite rocks all the time and targets will, Dire Radiance deals radiant damage [few resistances AND bonus damage to undead] and targets fort plus it's extra damage activates fairly easily without hurting you, and Spiteful Glammer actually does more damage on an undamaged foe and it targets will.
All are a pretty good alternative to Eldritch Blast. Hellish Rebuke? Crappy damage that lots of things have a resistance to, it targets the same defense as Eldritch Blast and the special effect only triggers if I'm getting beat up. Boy am I excited...
I was happy to see Eldritch Strike proposed, but it looks like I'll have to go with melee training. I can't see losing Eldritch blast and only having Hellish Rebuke as my only ranged at will.
I think all the warlock at-wills are inferior to Eldritch Blast except in certain situations.
Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. Your default attack is Eldritch Blast, and you use a different one if you think you can get good use out of the special effect. Well, except for Spiteful Glamor, which steps on Blast's toes a lot.
I dunno, maybe Ata keeps putting me in situations where the pact at-wills get to shine, but I've been finding them to be incredibly useful. If I can peg a melee combatant with Dire Radiance before they get into close combat, then they're in trouble. Yeah, it sort of sucks that I have to get beat up for Hellish Rebuke to work, but right now I have as much hp as the defenders, and that's not counting the temp hp I frequently have on me. I can take the hit. And yes, fire's one of the poorer damage types (like third or fourth worst), but fire resist isn't that common. You just happen to be fighting fire beetles.
Elec, aren't you planning on taking Sacrifice to Caiphon? That's some pretty fun synergy right there.
As for needing high Con to deal with otherworldly forces, both the 3.x Warlock and Binder used Cha as their main stat, not Con. Make of it what you will.
What if the proposal was changed to something like this:
Warlock can choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, Hideous Blow Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.
In Echoes of O I kept looking for a time to use Dire Radiance, but we were always spread out enough that if I stopped it from coming after me it would just go after someone else, at right angles to me. And being pretty melee-heavy myself, I was rarely in a situation where I wanted an enemy to go after an ally in preference to me.
Elec, aren't you planning on taking Sacrifice to Caiphon? That's some pretty fun synergy right there.
Hadn't planned on it, but now that it's back in it might be an option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking
Yeah, it sort of sucks that I have to get beat up for Hellish Rebuke to work, but right now I have as much hp as the defenders, and that's not counting the temp hp I frequently have on me.
Oh, I have plenty of HP and temp HP and I getting hit a lot. However I'm in melee quite a bit and when I'm hit I'm in melee combat. If I'm at range, I'm not getting hit. Firing off a hellish Rebuke in melee means I grant a OA. Getting hit twice so I can do an extra d6 + mod damage isn't worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking
What if the proposal was changed to something like this:
Warlock can choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, Hideous Blow Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.
I'd be all for that. I was just looking to pick up the two generic ones and not have my pact power. Since my original proposal didn't go over well, I'll go ahead and change my first post to add this.
The new proposal seems okay with me. I'll wait to vote a bit to see if someone points out something I'm missing.
One thing that strikes me is a human infernal warlock could take Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Strike, then Dire Radiance for his extra. Not sure if that's a problem...
I'd also be open to considering Dire Radiance having a choice of Con/Cha. I'm not a fan of they way the star pact is designed, though. It's like they took the worst of a V shaped class and wrapped it into a single class feature.
__________________ Gary Hoggatt - www.garyh.net "Such heroic nonsense..."
One thing that strikes me is a human infernal warlock could take Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Strike, then Dire Radiance for his extra. Not sure if that's a problem...
I'd have no issue adding that humans must take either Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike AND their pact at will if it becomes a sticking point. Those three powers ARE pretty cool together though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyh
I'm not a fan of they way the star pact is designed, though.
No doubt. Out of the boat it was really bad IMO. After the dragon issue it's better, but it could still use some help. There IS a few powers in the arcane book too although for the most part they get no love in that book.
One of the things that's turning me off about this proposal is how completely opposite to the warlock's fluff it is. A warlock gets his powers by making a pact with something. The fact that choosing a pact dictates one of his powers is part of the bargain. It's like a cleric complaining that he can't take Channel Divinity powers from other gods.
I'd actually be more open to allowing warlocks a choice of something else besides Eldritch Blast.
It's like a cleric complaining that he can't take Channel Divinity powers from other gods.
Er, I'm pretty sure that in L4W a cleric doesn't need to worship a specific god to get a certain Channel Divinity. There's nothing about it in the Character Creation guide, and the wording in the wiki makes it sound like the matchings are more suggestions than anything else.
I don't like it, but that's mostly because I'm not a fan of houserule class "fixes" in general.
__________________ “The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!”
- Jack Kerouac Lorik Oh god, the temptation
One of the things that's turning me off about this proposal is how completely opposite to the warlock's fluff it is. A warlock gets his powers by making a pact with something. The fact that choosing a pact dictates one of his powers is part of the bargain. It's like a cleric complaining that he can't take Channel Divinity powers from other gods.
I'd actually be more open to allowing warlocks a choice of something else besides Eldritch Blast.
Well, the updated proposal pretty much works the way you suggest - your pact partner offers you 3 powers, the two generic Eldritch powers and the pact-specific one, and you get to pick two. (Although to really follow the fluff, a human with 3 at-wills would be required to take all 3 and not take another pact's at-will. That would mean, AFAIK, the only way to get an at-will outside of your pact would be to wait for Paragon and take Twofold Pact.)
Here's another thought: what if a Warlock was allowed to take Pact Initiate for a separate pact? Then they'd get training in one extra skill from the Warlock list, qualify for two pacts worth of paragon paths, and the other pact's at-will as an encounter power. (And to be really precise, you would count as your original pact for all powers, and you'd need to use a power-swap feat when learning a power to get the special bonus for the second pact instead. But that would be confusig.) It would be like Twofold Pact light, but available at Heroic. (I don't think this actually addresses the proposal at all, I'm just throwing it out there.)
First off, sorry about the length. As I made this post people kept replying and I added comments to them and then MORE people commented...
Thanks for all the feedback guys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by covaithe
One of the things that's turning me off about this proposal is how completely opposite to the warlock's fluff it is.
Honestly, the fluff is meaningless. Look the Sorcerers. From their fluff, you'd think if anyone HAD to take powers it'd be them. But do they? Take a Storm Magic one. 'The raw and unbridled fury of storm powers your spells.' However none of your powers have to be storm ones.
How about the others. Dragon: 'The elemental power of dragons flows through you, infusing your spells with draconic strength.' Chaos: 'You draw your spells from the entropic forces of the Elemental Chaos.' Cosmic: 'Just as the constellations move around the sky in a steady, imperturbable cadence, your spells are strong and unshakable, and tied to energies that can outlast all others.'
Now look at warlocks. They form a pact. Which sounds easier to modify. Something that's in your blood or a contract? And remember, it's with beings called mysterious, amoral and capricious. Do they sound like beings that do things by rote and ALWAYS give out the same powers? Every warlock of the same type ALWAYS forms the exact same pact? Who makes the pact forms for all these godly beings? Look at Fey; you have 'primitive earth spirits, capricious wood, sky, or water spirits, and incarnations of seasons or natural forces who roam the faerie realm like wild gods.' Do you think they all got the memo that every fey pact is 100% the same?
Add to that the fact that after at-wills, your pact giver couldn't give a damn what powers you pick. You MUST take this one power but the other 15 do what you want? If the pact giver can give you Eldritch blast, Eldrich Strike and your pact at will, why should it matter to 'him' which two you pick? Mind you that humans prove that all pact givers have access to ALL warlock at wills, which was the basis for my first proposal...
TwoHeadsBarking makes a good point with the Channel Divinity feats. Here pretty much anyone can pick any of them and even in a normal game you can pick the feat THEN your god. The only limits are roleplaying and alignment. Not a very good example of 'forced' power picks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Incognito
I don't like it, but that's mostly because I'm not a fan of houserule class "fixes" in general.
We are already talking about a 'fix' with the inclusion of the Eldritch Strike power. By RAW only humans and 1/2 elves can take it. All I'm asking is that the houserule 'fix' be expanded to allow the replacing of the pact power in addition to the eldritch blast that seems to be agreed upon in the other thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
what if a Warlock was allowed to take Pact Initiate for a separate pact?
If we went this route, I'd suggest doing it differently. Make it a power-swap feat that swaps your starting pact at-will with that of another pact. Or get both pact at wills but you have to pick one and only change it after a rest. With the second option, you could have your pact abilities based on your current pact at will [IE:you have eyebite you are counted as fey, you switch to Dire Radiance and you are counted as star]. Switching pact abilities could get a little confusing though. Call it Two Masters.
Your starting pact dictates your At-Will and your Pact Boon. In theory, that means a more powerful boon could be balanced by a less powerful at-will. Allowing people to pick both would let them pair the most powerful at-will with the mort powerful boon.
So, does anyone think any of the other At-Will's are as wimpy as Hellish Rebuke? (I'd say no: Eyebite is pretty awesome, and Dire Radiance can be good in a lot more situations than Hellish Rebuke is.) Ok, so if Hellish Rebuke is the least powerful, is the Infernal Pact's boon more powerful than the others? Misty Step is also pretty awesome. Fate of the Void is pretty good. Are thp more powerful than a +1 to hit, or teleport 3?
]. I love everything else about infernal warlocks but I just despise that power. It's just inferior and redundant to Eldritch Blast [I don't think I've EVER had the extra damage activate and WAY more things are fire resistant! 
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