Hero of the Faith: Broken, or just Unbalanced and in need of meds? You decide.

[Tomalak]

I'm forking this thread here because the discussion has completely taken over the Divine Power discussion, and I'd like a chance to discuss the rest of the book.

The general consensus is that HotF should not be played as written. Comment please.

[garyh]

I think HotF is fine as is, personally. If it's truly "broken," WotC will fix it soon enough.

[CaBaNa]

though I do respect the general consensus, and would not raise a "stink" if HoTF gets nerf'd or banned, I disagree that it is either broken or unbalanced.

I like the feat, I think it is appropriate.

I've heard the argument that, Avengers only OoE once per encounter. If the striker is only killing one monster per encounter...

the team, isn't working together properly.(insert comment about how teams can work many ways, and the previous statement is far too general.) By focusing on one threat at a time, and taking that damage potential off the board, the party reduces the total damage they take. This also lets the Avenger OoE 2+ times per encounter.

If we are going to nerf HotF, how about this.

Hero of the Faith, Prerequisite Wis 15, not a Ranger.

[stonegod]

Originally Posted by garyh

I think HotF is fine as is, personally. If it's truly "broken," WotC will fix it soon enough.

Before L4W gets it, anyway. Me, I happy just not allowing it until they do fix it (which is what I'll recommend over in LEB).

[Tinwe]

I'm not convinced that HoF is overpowered. On the face of it, rolling twice for every attack on one creature per encounter is strong, but there are other options just as powerful (mainly because of the paragon classes they open up- avenger paragon options are... bad). Rangers in particular have much better MC options if minmaxxing.

The worst I can see happening is Rogue MC Avenger / Daggermaster, which is a bit OP compared to other rogue builds but not compared to other striker builds (it's not the rogue's fault he's underpowered).

[JoeNotCharles]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

I'm not convinced that HoF is overpowered. On the face of it, rolling twice for every attack on one creature per encounter is strong, but there are other options just as powerful (mainly because of the paragon classes they open up- avenger paragon options are... bad). Rangers in particular have much better MC options if minmaxxing.

Like what?

To me, it still boils down to this: was the feat that gave Hunter's Quarry for an entire encounter overpowered? If yes, why is this better? If no, why did they nerf it?

[Tinwe]

Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles

Like what?

To me, it still boils down to this: was the feat that gave Hunter's Quarry for an entire encounter overpowered? If yes, why is this better? If no, why did they nerf it?

Like Ranger MC Fighter / Pitfighter or / Stormwarden. Rolling twice on Twin Strike doesn't come close to matching up to snagging Rain of Blows (yes, even the nerfed one), Trip Up, Quicksilver Stance, and all the goodies from the paragon classes.

That point you make is valid, and WotC will probably nerf the feat after a while to bring it down to the 1 turn/encounter benefit of the other MC feats, but when you take everything together, the people who are saying that every striker will take HoF are just as silly and just as wrong as the people who said that every striker would go barbarian MC when PHBII came out. There are paragon classes that are just too good for strikers to seriously consider anything besides Fighter or Rogue MC (and possibly Warlock for radiant characters).

[KenHood]

Folks,

Why don't y'all communicate this to WOTC, instead of trying to fix it over here? That way, they'll address the problem and apply the update before we adopt the book, and you end up benefitting a much larger community of roleplayers with your actions.

[JoeNotCharles]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

Like Ranger MC Fighter / Pitfighter or / Stormwarden. Rolling twice on Twin Strike doesn't come close to matching up to snagging Rain of Blows (yes, even the nerfed one), Trip Up, Quicksilver Stance, and all the goodies from the paragon classes.

Ok, but that's a different topic. It's not the fighter multiclass feat that's too strong, it's the paragon paths you can move into after taking it. Student of the Sword itself isn't broken - if you replaced it with a feat that said only, "You qualify for Fighter paragon paths" it wouldn't change anything.

We can't easily do anything about weird paragon path combinations, even if we were to agree they're a problem, because there's no simple thing we can point at to ban, unless we ban multiclassing entirely. So there's really no point in letting it distract us.

We're talking about the actual specific effects of the Hero of the Faith feat.

[covaithe]

I think HotF is overpowered, and not just for strikers. In my epic game (see sig links if you're curious), Sessadore has a lvl 21 cleric with HotF. No problems with the wisdom requirement there. It's only come up once so far, but he used it to (effectively) guarantee a hit wth Righteous Brand, granting +7 to hit to the barbarian in the party, who promptly went nova with Storm of Blades and something else. It was impressive.

Now, I don't think that use in itself was overpowered, as such, but... I play HotF in that game with the (to me) obvious nerf that it lasts until the end of next turn. Even thus nerfed, and even not on a super-twinked-cheese build, it has been an important factor at a crucial point in a big fight.

If it's that good while nerfed, it seems to me that it shouldn't be played un-nerfed.

[Atanatotatos]

If it's not that good, why do you want it so badly, since it's practically a copy of a previously existant feat on steroids?

And the problem is not "rangers". As cov said, it's just as good for any fighter, barbarian, or any other melee combatant who wants to KO a powerful enemy faster.
For example, Storm of Blades, 13 level barbarian encounter power, is not COMPLETELY broken (although it's certainly overpowered) simply because if you miss on one attack, the chain ends. If you roll twice the chances of landing the whole series goes up like crazy. It's a free reroll on every melee attack roll if you set it up right, guys. Think about it. Rerolls are NOT that easy to come by.

[Tinwe]

@Joenotcharles: I'm not really trying to argue the merits of paragon classes. You asked for an example of a better minmax MC feat for Rangers, so I supplied it.

Originally Posted by Atanatotatos

If it's not that good, why do you want it so badly, since it's practically a copy of a previously existant feat on steroids?

I don't want it. Speaking as someone who plays a Ranger, I wouldn't take it even if it's admitted as it stands. I'm siding with KenHood here- if you think it's OP, email WotC. Take it easy on the nerfbat- if the feat is too strong, it'll get knocked down. In the meantime, 15 Wis is a steep price for a melee striker to pay.

Also, if you're going to point out Storm of Blades, it's only honest to note that you get 1 + Con mod attacks. It's not "keep hitting until you miss", as you seem to imply. Show me the Barbarian who can afford both a high Con and 15 Wis for the MC Avenger, and I'll show you a reason that 25-point buy is too high.

Edit: Oh, and speaking of Barbarians, here's the example of an encounter-long MC benefit that people were asking for earlier:

Berserker's Fury [Multiclass Barbarian]
Prerequisite: Str 13, Con 13
Benefit: You gain training in one skill from the barbarian’s class skills list.
Once per day as a free action, you can gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls until the end of the encounter.

Granted it's 1/day. It's still encounter-long.

[renau1g]

*sigh* my major beef with the feat is that it robs the Avenger of it's "it" factor. It'd be like getting sneak attack or raging with just one feat. That robs the other classes of their uniqueness, plus count in the one other feat to be able to transfer your oath and *boom* no need for avengers. Avengers rely on this to make up their DPR without it they suck, period, compared to other strikers.

[renau1g]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

Edit: Oh, and speaking of Barbarians, here's the example of an encounter-long MC benefit that people were asking for earlier:



Granted it's 1/day. It's still encounter-long.

That is a big difference as is the +2 to damage, vs the (essentially) +5 to hit. If you combine the Barb one with a daily it does daily dmg +2. If you combine HoTF with a daily you up the expected damage by 25% or more (assuming a 50% hit rate, you bump it up to 75% and double your chances of a crit)... so you can see the comparison. 1/day get +2 damage, the other up your DPR by a minimum of 25%

[Tinwe]

Originally Posted by renau1g

That is a big difference as is the +2 to damage, vs the (essentially) +5 to hit. If you combine the Barb one with a daily it does daily dmg +2. If you combine HoTF with a daily you up the expected damage by 25% or more (assuming a 50% hit rate, you bump it up to 75% and double your chances of a crit)... so you can see the comparison. 1/day get +2 damage, the other up your DPR by a minimum of 25%

It's +2 dmg to everything hit in 1 encounter. It allows target switching, which HotF does not. Not to substitute anecdote for evidence, but I cannot think of a game where I have played a striker, either in PbP or live, in which I have not switched targets at least once.

As I mentioned earlier, I find it amusing that everyone (not necessarily everyone here- it happened on other boards too) rushed to the Barb MC feat with the nerfbat when PHBII came out, proclaiming that every single striker would take it. They didn't. Now PHBII is old news, the Avenger MC feat is supposed to be the new flavor of the month, and it won't be.

I'll say, too- if a player wants to break the Avenger OoE mechanic, he goes Avenger MC Rogue / Daggermaster and swaps out his avenger powers. It's a good build, but even that doesn't keep up with the damage of other strikers. The Avenger MC feat is situationally very useful, but it's not gamebreaking.

[Atanatotatos]

Nope. Ren already stated why the two feats are not even comparable. Also, I don't really remember anyone complaining about that particular MC feat. I don't see why anyone would: it's a good feat only because it is universally useful, and opens a class with great powers, not because of its own strenght.
About storm of blows: Consider a +2 Str and Con or +2 Str and Wis race. At level 13 with 22pb you can have a reasonably built Rageblood with Str 21 Con 19 and Wis 15(or higher, if you want to neglect other stats). So you'll eventually have at least Con 24, I guess. While you might not see that as a problem because the levels are high, well, of course a low-level character cannot exploit things as much as a higher level one. But we're hoping to get there, eventually, right?
Also, you mention the half-elf Avenger-Rogue-Daggermaster. Well, keep in mind that it's totally unplayable at low levels, and we start there here (for now anyway).

[Velmont]

Another use: Wild Sorcerers could use there wild magic and choose between odd or even when both hit. Doing it for one or two rounds, that's fine, for a whole combat and start to chain Chaos Bolt on every enemy on the map (and suddenly failing to jump when the only creature left within 5 squares is an ally)... I also think there is a huge difference between 2 rounds (until the end of next turn) and end of encounter. Ok, a Wis 15 Sorcerer will be rare.

Just look at most effects from powers. Until the end of encounter are generally daily powers, not encounter powers.

That might be a possible fix. HoF could be a daily...

[Kalidrev]

Except that OoE only works with Melee Attacks, Vel. Otherwise, that would be one NASTY example.

[Atanatotatos]

It's possible via the Sorcerous blade channelling feat, right?

[Velmont]

Yeah, any ranged attack can become a melee attack through a dagger with a feat. Chaos Bolt is a ranged attack. But I don't think a sorcerer will like to spend half the combat next to an enemy to take advantage of that feat... well, who knows, might be if you work on such built.