Proposal: Remove the magic item penalty for new characters
Basically, I want to remove the penalty people take for replacing a retired or dead character with a new character of the same level. First of all, I doubt anyone is ever going to start at a lower level, since leveling up takes long enough as it is. Secondly, all this does is cause a problem that needs to be solved later. The new character will be behind the suggested wealth level, which means at some point a DM is going to have to give him some extra stuff to bring him to the proper wealth. Thirdly, it will make me feel like less of an idiot for not realizing the quasi-recent proposal didn't already do this.
If someone can come up with a better, more concise title, I'm all ears.
My only concern is that this will discourage character continuity, by making it comparatively more expensive to resurrect a character than build a new one. The starting gold numbers as calculated are, IIRC, something 10% behind the expected amount of treasure you'd earn in adventuring to that level. If you assume a few healing potions used, that means that a new character has roughly the same wealth as a character who leveled there the hard way. Someone who died and chose to be resurrected instead would be 500g behind. That's a lot at level 2 or 3.
I don't think there should be a mechanical advantage to leaving your character dead.
But there should also be a penalty for dying as well, otherwise it's like *meh, I died, ok just carry my spirit stone to the rez shrine and I'll rest and be all good*
Well, paying the 500 gp at level 2 is pretty harsh. For example, I think our characters in RotFL are just about to level. If Ikni died, she'd have to sell her sword to pay for her resurrection, and even then she'd have to hope Lauto would pay full price rather than the standard 20%. If Haruka dies, she'll need to take out a significant loan in order to come back, one which she will be paying off for quite some time. The financially crippling death penalty is an excellent incentive to not die, you know, if you needed one. But I don't think it should be the standard here.
What if your original character didn't die? What if you're just tired of him/her, or what if you want to change something the overhaul doesn't allow? Why should you have to pay the resurrection tax for turning a warlord/wizard multiclass into a swordmage?
Under the current system, a new level 2 character comes into play with 100 gold. That means they gained no wealth in their theoretical adventures from level 1 to level 2. That doesn't seem right.
Considering the large flow of new adventurers that travel through Daunton, the temple(s) have a potentially lucrative market. perhaps they offer a kind of life insurance to new adventurers(lvl 1 - 3); make deposits of gp over a period of time (a smaller fee than the 500gp) based on level, so you pay your fee each time you level up, but are assured that if you die you will be resurrected back in town.
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Last edited by Fragsie; 8th October 2009 at 02:23 AM..
But there should also be a penalty for dying as well, otherwise it's like *meh, I died, ok just carry my spirit stone to the rez shrine and I'll rest and be all good*
Don't forget the -1 to all check for threes milestone you get for a freshly ressurected character
So with this proposal:
Ressurected Character : -500 gp, -1 to hit, skill checks and saves until you have earned three milestone.
Make a new character : Nada.
Last edited by Mal Malenkirk; 8th October 2009 at 02:32 AM..
Don't forget the -1 to all check for threes milestone you get for a freshly ressurected character
So with this proposal:
Ressurected Character : -500 gp, -1 to hit, skill checks and saves until you have earned three milestone.
Make a new character : Nada.
You're absolutely right. The death penalty as written is too harsh. At least at low levels. I fully believe that anybody who wants to keep their old character will pay the tax, but I guess KenHood and nerdytenor are the only ones who can say for certain.
That being said, many characters have gotten to level 2 without dying. I believe most of them have, in fact. Maybe even all. How about we stop assuming that the original character died?
I'm going to put my cards on the table here. Come November 6th, unless someone blocks it, I fully plan on replacing Haruka the Warlock with Haruka the Assassin. She's an Infernal Pact Warlock currently adventuring with two defenders and two leaders, so I doubt she's going to die before then. I'm not exactly unbiased as to how this turns out. Which probably makes sense, given that I bothered to propose it in the first place.
I don't think people should be penalized when WotC releases a new class/race/whatever that better fits their character, or when they realize that they made several significant mistakes during character creation, or when they realize that a character they thought would be really fun just isn't turning out how they hoped.
I don't think people should be penalized when WotC releases a new class/race/whatever that better fits their character, or when they realize that they made several significant mistakes during character creation, or when they realize that a character they thought would be really fun just isn't turning out how they hoped.
That case, however, fits the "magical onetime overhaul" I believe (though that class changes might be banned; need to double check).
The penalty for swapping/dead characters is inherited from 3.5 LEW with the purpose of keeping folks from switching characters too often. The idea is that continuity would be hurt if people just shed characters like dirty laundry. I don't recall that ever happening in LEW nor has it seemed to happen here. I think it is something that should be discouraged, but it could be handled at the judge/approval level (if a note is made somewhere that too many such changes is frowned upon).
However, we also should (in my mind) encourage folks to stay with extant PCs than make new ones generally. If there is no penalty for retirement/leaving a character dead, there is less incentive to rez dead characters. So either we keep some sort of penalty or remove it from rezzing (which I'm not happy with).
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
The overhaul does not allow change in race, class, or concept.
Does this mean that someone who does retire a level 2 character should leave a note on their character sheet that they're supposed to be 680 gold behind the expected wealth?
Perhaps the change should be dependent on the release of new character classes or races? Just an idea. I'd like to do something about this. Mikara has been at level 1 for nigh on 8 months now (*ehem, how 'bout that ER Joe?) and I imagine that if she ever did make it past level 2 and died/retired, starting over at level 1 with a different character would be a drag, especially given the environment in the hanged man at this time (it's actually drifted off to page 2 in the table of contents).
A mere few days ago, a player asked to be allowed to change his race during the overhaul in a special proposition and it was accepted.
I thought we wanted to avoid one-time proposals like this? If I'm wrong, then fine, I'm not as interested in the outcome of this, although I still think the penalty is too much. I've been convinced that negating it entirely could be a problem too, but maybe it could be reduced to a reasonable level.
I'm just a little confused, because back in this thread it sounded like the goal wasn't to have level 2 characters be paupers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal Malenkirk
Therefore I propose that a level 2 character starts with:
Level 3 item (Level +1) and 140 gp.
...
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This is without accounting for any penalty you may want to add for someone who retire at one level and start at the same.
For those I recommend reducing the value of the starting items by one level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by covaithe
I have a feelling that we'll see a lot of retirement at level 2, when people play a character for a while and it doesn't quite work out how they thought it would, but they stick it out to 2 so as to get something for the time spent. I think that's reasonable, but, as you say, the starting wealth is out of line at level 2. I think we always knew it would be; it was just one of those things we were going to fix later rather than letting it hold up the start.
Anyway, what about using the expected wealth by level that we've been talking about in other recent threads (e.g. Time Gold) as a baseline? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if we took the average expected net worth of a PC who has adventured to level 2 and gotten 1/5 of the standard 10 treasure packets, took off, say, 20% as a "retirement fee", and used that number as the starting wealth at level 2? No stipulation as to what you have to spend it on; I don't think it's fair to require a level 3 item when there might not be any L3 items that character would be interested in. IMO the character should get the initial 100g from level 1 starting as well, but have to pay for mundane items.
I think the root of the problem is that the previous proposal didn't address the retirement fee, so we're stuck using the old one. When new characters got a bunch of items, the fee was reasonable. Now it is not.
so you aren't gonna redo murphy as an changeling assassin?
I was thinking about it, but I can't seem to wrap my head around the assassin class... it doesn't seem very good to me and I am unsure how to play it. My first thought when I heard about it was that (and if he dies a revenant...)
Maybe when Menace ends I'll be able to figure it out.
R1: I have played the Assassin a few times now in RL games, so if you want some tips/tricks/advice let me know ^_^ (Note I only have played as the NightStalker build, not the Bleak Disciple build)
?) and I imagine that if she ever did make it past level 2 and died/retired, starting over at level 1 with a different character would be a drag, especially given the environment in the hanged man at this time (it's actually drifted off to page 2 in the table of contents).
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