A Dance with Dragons discussion (SPOILERS!)

[Krug]

Ok think a few people have finished the book, so this is a spoiler-laden discussion of the book.

Overall, definitely way better than A Feast of Crows, but still frustrating and nowhere as good as the first three volumes. Little resolution for most plotlines, the story doesn't really close as one would think it should, and a lot of anti climatic moments. Notably the showdown between Stannis and the Boltons at Winterfell. Maybe it'll come up in the next book, but that's a long wait.

The last few chapters are brutal though, and the big question is..

[sblock]
Is Jon Snow dead?

Martin has a tendency for last-minute saves, and even one magical resurrection. So is it going to be the case here? A lot of threads about Jon, such as his mother, are yet to be resolved, so part of my instinct says no, he's not.

So what now for Daenerys?

I hope Martin isn't going to spend more time on the East. The intrigue there certainly isn't as interesting as what's going on in Westeros. I expected Tyrion to come across her and bring her back finally, but ... nope.

Stannis?

I don't think such a semi-major character will just die off-screen like that, and we only have Ramsay's letter as evidence.

Biggest disappointment was the lack of Littlefinger, but glad to have lots of Tyrion.
[/sblock]

I'm sceptical that Martin can finish things in two volumes. While it isn't getting more bloated, it's still not really deflating enough. His writing is still great, and the characters and cultures are certainly unique and intriguing. I guess I wanted more plotlines to be resolved, and even all those in the past two volumes, such as those surrounding the Drowning God and the new players in the Game, don't advance much.

Well those are my initial thoughts after finishing ADwD. Hope it's not another 7 years until the next book..

 

[Raunalyn]

The way I see it, I think this is just the setup for the final two volumes. He's putting all of his pieces into place so that he can start the action for the grand finale.

There is some good news. He mentioned that there were several chapters that he had to cut to put in Winds of Winter. So, he has already started the next book. It is my hope that the success of the television series will light a fire under him so that we don't have to wait 14 more years for the conclusion.

As to Jon:

[sblock]
I don't think he's dead. If he is, I have a feeling that he will be getting one of those miraculous resurrections that we've seen the Red Priests give.
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Stannis, I'm not so worried about. I never really liked him as a character, and I always felt that he was a means to a end (I think the character we need to keep an eye on is Melisandre...she's important).

 

[Krug]

Yeah I hope we don't have to wait too long for The Winds of Winter. Frankly though, with the supernatural elements so prominent in AFoC and ADwD, they can't quite match up with the first three, where it was pretty much a very low-magic setting. Secrets and sabotage were the order of the day, rather than sorcery.

I guess there are various escape routes for Jon, including 'jumping' to Ghost. I'm sure if he does survive he'll come out scarred. I enjoyed his chapters most, but like his father, in staying honorable and refusing to play the game, he exposed himself.

There's a whole lot of info dumping in this volume as well, most of which made my eyes glaze over.

To me the two main threats are what's coming from the North, and the struggle for the throne. The two still don't seem to come together; the dragons seem to be the most natural solution to the Others (and other thingies), but will Martin be that predictable?

 

[Cor Azer]

I'm fifty-fifty on how Jon survives, but I do think he's dead in some way. Melisandre should certainly have the same power as Thoros to bring someone back to life, and even Beric did it once with next to no training (although he had been a recipient several times).

The other option is that Jon wargs into Ghost to survive. All the foreshadowing of Varamyr in the prologue was setting up the warging into a beast so it has to be relevant for one of the Stark kids - but since Bran seems to be going the greenseer route, that leaves it for Jon or Arya.

I can't recall the exact place, but in one of the Melisandre chapters, she mentions in a vision of Jon - man, wolf, man; which seems to edge it a bit towards the warging. Then it becomes a question of how (or who) Jon wargs back into to become a man again. One possibility is one of the frozen corpses in the ice cells, and then using one of Mel's glamours to make himself resemble, well, himself.

Ramsay's letter has too much information to not be from Ramsay (ie, Reek), but it's strange that in the defeat of Stannis he didn't recover Theon, so something isn't going well there. Also strange that Roose would let him send off such a letter, so something fishy goes on at Winterfell.

I don't think Stannis is dead. I am considering the idea that his forces were routed. If Ramsay's letter has some truth to it (which I sure it does have some), I think Stannis' forces were caught with their pants down, but that the Ironborn somehow managed to spirit off Stannis with the Braavosi banker's help. Barring delusion on Ramsay's part, that's the only scenario I envision where where the Boltons win handily enough that they recover Lightbringer but fail to recapture Theon.

Also, I love the idea of this big battle not being directly shown - it positively screams incoherent nightmare memories for one or more surviving characters - a confused mayhem of white death.

As for Meereen, I see it splitting. Dany and Drogon are going with Khal Jhaqo to Vaes Dothrak, where Dany will cow the dosh khaleen, and then continue east past Asshai and across the Sunset Sea, landing in the west of Westeros. Victarion will be the match that lights the powderkeg that is Meereen, with the dragons bringing everything down. I suspect Barristan to die ('cause he knows too much history, and we can't have people learning that), but Tyrion escapes yet again (the Gods are not done with their butt-monkey) to join up with Aegon and Connington. This removes all the eastern folk from Dany's group, leaving only those who want to be in Westeros heading there, and finally, brutally, slays Kong.

I don't mind no Littlefinger - we know from Feast what he's doing - slowly dismantling the Lords Declarant, who agreed to give him a year to set things right. I suspect a very early chapter in Winds of Winter will be the Sansa/Harry wedding, so that the book can explore the mustering of the Vale, and the reactions of the rest of Westeros.

 

[Krug]

Hmm good points. I don't think it'll be as tidy, and I'm not sure why Dany is going to head to Westeros still. There's just no pull factor yet.

A pretty good analysis of the series:
Black Gate Blog Archive Ruminations on Ice and Fire

I think Martin’s playing about with other notions as well, related to his use of point-of-view and his mosaic structure. For example, there’s an interesting passage in the new book where a historically-minded character questions the real viability of violence as a way of solving problems; and, without getting too deeply into that specific passage, I do think the books are concerned with the futility of violence. Also, in a related way, with the futility of history; with violence spawned by a certain understanding of history, with stories about feuds and ancestors and cultures that set people and armies against one another. Words are wind; but winds can drive ships and uproot trees. Words can drive armies and uproot kingdoms.

I think all of this boils down to themes of identity. You can see it in the way Martin handles his structure. He identifies the viewpoint character for each of his chapters by using the character’s name as the chapter title; in the last couple of books he’s played about with that, identifying chapters with names that characters have had forced upon them, or indeed using roles instead of names, so that he calls into question the identity of the characters — and makes the reader wonder both who they really are, and who they think they are. Martin gets at some remarkable effects in doing so. A partial spoiler for the new book: one character, who I’d frankly never been especially interested in, has a particularly compelling arc which is highlighted by the different names that open his viewpoint chapters, reflecting the different ways he thinks about himself. This character works through the identities forced upon him over the course of a kind of healing back to something like what he used to be, with the result that when the name we used to know him by appears once again, it’s almost a stand-up-and-cheer moment; a confirmation that somebody who’s been through all kinds of hell has nevertheless recovered.

More broadly, the way Martin uses his play with riddles to make us question what we think we know about who his characters are — their parentage, their morals, their goals — leads us to see their identities as being in flux. And along with those identities, the world as a whole. We learn in the first book, for example, that a minor character is a bastard son of a king. But the son in question doesn’t know this. What happens when he finds out, if he finds out? Does it change who he is? Will it affect the whirl of politics? We don’t know. Nothing is certain.

A Feast For CrowsLook at how often characters appear in disguise. Sometimes we know who they are; sometimes we don’t. Characters speculate about other characters. Sometimes we find out they were right to wonder; sometimes we don’t. Sometimes we find out they were wrong. Identity is protean, but limiting; one person can never actually be another person, even if it’s in someone’s interest to make the world believe they are that other. But at the same time, one identity can be (partly) dropped and another assumed just by putting on a black cloak. Or a stolen suit of armour.

Identity, in other words, is a riddle. It is a riddle that can in part be solved, by careful attention to detail. But perhaps it also cannot be solved; perhaps there’s always more behind it, or perhaps there are things we cannot get away from. At any rate, by filling his books with riddles, by making riddles and the limitations of individual perspectives part of the structural core of his story, Martin’s making us think about identity in a certain way. He leads us to identify with his characters — the ultimate riddle of any storytelling endeavour: why should the audience care? — even when we don’t know who they really are. We can only read carefully, and ponder what we’re told and who tells it to us; and guess at all the answers we can’t know.

I think Martin’s style, his clarity and use of concrete detail, help set up his use of multiple perspectives and his play with identity. Which is to say that I think his style reflects the structure of the books, and that both style and structure reflect the themes I think he’s playing with.

 

[Cor Azer]

Hmm good points. I don't think it'll be as tidy, and I'm not sure why Dany is going to head to Westeros still. There's just no pull factor yet.

A pretty good analysis of the series:
Black Gate Blog Archive Ruminations on Ice and Fire

Dany's motivation for returning to Westerosi? Not that hard in my mind - she's still young, ruled more by emotion than logic, and although she's toughened a lot in the few years of the books' events, you also need to remember that Viserys spent even longer drilling into her head that they would return and take back their birthright; that's some powerful conditioning to overcome.

A massacre in Meereen could be exactly what she needs though - she's too compassionate to abandon all her charges but taking them all with her would be far too difficult. If they were all stripped away from her though, particularly if she wasn't in a position to help (such as being stuck with the dosh khaleen), a little dragonfire revenge would be all that was left keeping her in Essos. And since part of that revenge would be against Qarth, she'd already be heading east nearer Asshai and possibly crossing the Subset Sea.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Finished it last night, and of course wish I had the next volume sitting in front of me right now. That said, I think it's time for GRRM to start tying together these many loose threads, and bring all of the action back to Westeros. I was glad at least to see that Griff had begun the assault. I'll be interested to see what Dorne does in response, particularly in light of Quentyn's actions.

It was good to see Varys reappear, though I was sorry to see what happened to Kevin as a result. I had to say that I had some hopes for Kevin serving as Regent, since he was milder than Tywin and saner than Cersei.

I'm beyond trying to guess what Martin has in store for Jon, but I hope he comes back in some identifiable form, and not just as a Warg. It's been sad to see the last remnants of the Stark family disappear completely into the mist.

I too wonder what really took place at Winterfell. As someone noted, Ramsey's note reveals to much to make me think it's all a bluff, but that again leads to the question of where Theon is, what happened to Stannis, and what took place after the last Asha chapter.

 

[Cor Azer]

It was good to see Varys reappear, though I was sorry to see what happened to Kevin as a result. I had to say that I had some hopes for Kevin serving as Regent, since he was milder than Tywin and saner than Cersei.

The more I think about it , the more I realize Kevan had to be removed. He was saner than Cersei yes, and obviously more than just a yes man to Tywin.

However, he would have easily limited Cersei's influence on Tommen, and with the Tyrells distracted by Euron on the Mander, would have had an easy time adjusting to meet Aegon's arrival in the Stormlands.

But with Kevan out of the picture, the Tyrells have a bigger at at court, with Cersei still trying to manipulate Tommen behind the scenes, and now two Sand Snakes come in to stir the pot even more, particularly with the possibility of Dorne throwing in with Targsryen (although if they're too blatant, then Tyene and Nymeria are hostages, which may be Doran's backup plan for keeping their trouble along out of Dorne). A game of cyvasse indeed.

 

[Remus Lupin]

A couple of other thoughts that I had reflecting on the book yesterday.

First of all, what did Bowen Marsh think he was accomplishing? Did he not imagine that Tormund Giantsbane might have something to say about what he did to Jon? How did he think he was going to handle a berserk Wun Wun? And really, what was the sequence of events that led to Wun Wun's freak out? I think I know but I hope we get it explained to us.

Also A couple of things surprised me, particularly the fact that he pushed Cersei's trial off another volume (apparently set to happen early on, but considering the events of the epilogue, I'm doubtful). I'm also curious to see what will happen with Jaime and Brienne. And who among the apparent dead will stay dead. On that note, I felt genuinely sorry for Quentyn Martell.

Finally, I have to say, I'm over the Ironborn. Did their POV chapters lend ANYTHING to ANYTHING? He could have easily cut a couple of hundred pages out just by ridding us of Asha, Theon, and Victarion. It's padding that absolutely DOESN'T need to be there. I mean, what did Victarion and Asha DO? Nothing! That material better pay off for us at some point.

 

[Remus Lupin]

The more I think about it , the more I realize Kevan had to be removed. He was saner than Cersei yes, and obviously more than just a yes man to Tywin.

However, he would have easily limited Cersei's influence on Tommen, and with the Tyrells distracted by Euron on the Mander, would have had an easy time adjusting to meet Aegon's arrival in the Stormlands.

But with Kevan out of the picture, the Tyrells have a bigger at at court, with Cersei still trying to manipulate Tommen behind the scenes, and now two Sand Snakes come in to stir the pot even more, particularly with the possibility of Dorne throwing in with Targsryen (although if they're too blatant, then Tyene and Nymeria are hostages, which may be Doran's backup plan for keeping their trouble along out of Dorne). A game of cyvasse indeed.

Agreed on all fronts. And I think we're now finally getting a picture of the long game that Varys has been running. His goal has clearly been to get the Targaryans back in power ever since they were deposed. We've pretty much known this since book I I guess. But we now see that he had a number of different contingency plans. First he had Aegon in reserve, then Viserys, and the deal to marry Quentyn to Daneyres.

But my question as a reader is this: Should I WANT the Targaryans back in power? Classical literary theory says the end of the drama should resolve the threads and result in the restoration of order. There are many ways to get there, and I think many of us have assumed for a long time that it would end with Dany on the throne. But even if I could support that outcome, depending on how it was handled, should I be rooted for the Targaryans IN GENERAL to regain power? Particularly if they're doing so through the offices of Varys? It all goes back to something Jorah said in the first volume I guess, the nobles play their game of thrones, and the small folks pay the price. Who ultimately sits the Iron Throne may not matter nearly as much as we've been led to believe.