Revisioning Tiers

Mercurius

Legend
One of the positive innovations of 4E, imo, are the tiers that delineate distinct styles of game play. But the style of 4E game play as a whole, which started PCs off as minor heroes, didn't really exploit the potential of the tier structure. What it did do was create a broader sweet-spot, but one that didn't diversify play enough and in a sense pushed away both extremes of play: it minimized off-the-farm play and made epic play inaccessible and less interesting, partially because it wasn't different enough from the already-epic-feeling 4E Heroic and Paragon play. In other words, 4E failed to accomplish what every edition has failed to accomplish: bring Epic play alive.

So there are a few goals to this rumination on revisioning the tiers: which can be essentialized by the following design goal: Make play possible from picking up grandpa's rusty sword to fight the goblins attacking the farm all the way to cosmic wars between gods and the creation of worlds.

I would add the caveat, of course, that the sweet-spot and core default is the traditional D&D game: the young adventurer with rudimentary training off to make his or her name as a hero, and then becoming that hero and facing greater challenges. I don't want to lose that core focus, but I would like to both expand it on both ends and make each phase of the game distinctly interesting and unique.
A bit more on this spectrum. Many have complained that 4E 1st level characters are like 1E 3-5th level characters; they're already minor heroes, already pretty tough, and it is nigh impossible to play an "off the farm" or even "grim-and-gritty" game without serious modifications. So the first goal would be to lower the power level of 1st level characters; perhaps not to the point of 1E (who wants to play a magic-user with d4 HP and only one spell per day again? Don't you remember how irritating it was to cast your puny magic missile and then retreat behind the fighter to thwack anyone that gets by with your quarterstaff?). So let's make 1st level characters playable but vulnerable: something between 1E and 4E (and thus, I suppose, closer to 3.5).

On the other side of the spectrum we have the eternal problem (and even Holy Grail of D&D game design) of epic play. Probably the main reason that epic tier has been woefully neglected - in all editions but especially in 4E - is a variant of the law of diminishing returns; it is similar to the idea that the more specific a supplement is, the less people will buy it (e.g. The Player's Handbook has more widespread appeal than Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook).

And of course there is the matter of simply getting to epic tier; unless one plays in a weekly game and leveling up occurs every other session or so, a group won't see epic tier for two or three years (my group plays an inconsistent every-other-week schedule with advancement every 3-4 sessions or so, and is only at 15th level after two and a half years).

So the goal here, again, is to expand play from 4E's "minor hero to superhero" sweet-spot so that we get the entire spectrum of play, from off-the-farm rubes to demigods challenging Asmodeus in Nessus (and perhaps even beyond, but more on that in a moment).

First of all, I would suggest expanding the level structure to a full fifty levels, but with an open-ended cap for possible further play into different levels of godhood. With a flatter power curve, this becomes more do-able; this is what I have in mind:

Let's explore these in a bit more depth:


  • 1-10: Adventurer Tier - "classic" or old school D&D, centered on a small region, town, or adventuring wilderness. This would involve dungeoncrawls, skirmishes with humanoids, and your typical adventures. A 1st level character would effectively be an off-the-farm teenager with only rudimentary skills (e.g. a blacksmith's son who played around with swords and received basic training from his father, or a neophyte cleric or an apprentice wizard). The first few levels would be developing skills so that, by mid-tier, one is a seasoned veteran (thus your garden variety town guardsman or soldier would be low-to-mid tier, not 1st level). To put it another way, and in craft guild terms, the first five levels would be more like an apprentice sub-tier, with the rest of the tier being akin to a journeyman.
  • 11-20: Heroic Tier - similar to 4E's Heroic Tier or AD&D's classic sweet-spot of levels 5-12ish. PCs become true (albeit minor) heroes; a larger region or nation is the focus, major quests, first forays into the Underdark, etc. In craft guild terms, the journeyman has become an expert in their craft.
  • 21-30: Paragon Tier - PCs become powers of the land, recognizable heroes. Adventures in the Underdark and into the planes; opponents become powerful undead, dragons, hordes of monsters, etc. PCs may become rulers or, at least, known heroes of the land. In craft guild terms, the expert has become a master in the field.
  • 31-40: Epic Tier - PCs become movers and shakers, possibly rulers of nations. Opponents become major/unique monsters - demon lords, ancient dragons, archliches, the Tarrasque, etc, as well as "end of the world" scenarios. The master of a craft has become a legend - one of the greatest in their field in known history.
  • 41-50: Immortal/Demigod Tier - At this point the superheroic epic character has transcended the normal limits of mortal development. It could be that in order to gain this tier (that is, to advance beyond 40th level) some kind of quest for the Elixir of Life must occur, or the character must be "immortalized" by a greater deity. Game-play would be truly cosmic: wars between gods and powerful extra-planar beings.
  • 51+: Immortal/True Gods - It is hard to imagine viable game-play beyond demigodhood, but it is possible. The character would essentially be a god in his or her own right. The difference between a true god and a demigod, in this regard, is that the former has worshipers and domains of power, whereas a demigod may be in service of a greater power, more of a patron and exemplar to mortals than a focus of worship. Thus game-play would be more of a meta-game, the development of a religion, tending the flock, etc, perhaps even to the point of world-creation or even reality creation. One could say that at the hypothetical "100th level" a being transcends even greater godhood and becomes a creator being in their own right and may leave this reality to create another one...(and thus becomes a DM!).

You might be asking a question at this point: If it is hard to get to Epic tier in 4E (21st level), how is anyone ever going to get to 41st level, let alone 51st and beyond? This is where we get into modular rules for 5E, and different approaches to levels and advancement as a whole. By way of both summarizing key points above and developing them further, I would suggest the following:

Flatten the power curve
. By expanding the 30 levels of 4E to 50 levels, with two "new" tiers on either end, it allows for a slower build-up and advancement.

Keep and strengthen a new character development at each new tier.
At 11th, 21st, 31st, 41st, and 51st, the PC choosing a new option similar to 4E's paragon paths and epic destinies. Perhaps at 11th level it could be a heroic talent - a heroic trait or quality that the PC can draw from (e.g. "luck of the gods" or special racial traits), sort of like a more powerful, interesting, and perhaps campaign-specific feat. At 21st it would be a paragon path, at 31st an epic destiny, and at 41st it would be some kind of divine trait, and at 51st it would be a sphere of influence, with new spheres every ten levels. So like so:
  • Heroic - Heroic Talent
  • Paragon - Paragon Path
  • Epic - Epic Destiny
  • Immortal/Demigod - Divine Trait
  • Immortal/True God - Sphere of Influence
A mechanism for quick advancement should be offered, at least as a visible modular option. This could be a variable advancement rate, depending upon the campaign and tier. For instance, if a group wants a 4E-style campaign, they could burn through Adventurer tier at a quick pace (maybe a level every 1-2 sessions) and then slow down for Heroic and Paragon (a level every 4-5 sessions). Also, options for starting at higher tiers would be there (this is always an option, but it would be "legitimized" by being an official modular option).

What is "Core?" I would suggest that the starter set only include the so-called apprentice sub-tier (levels 1-5), and the core rulebooks include only the first three tiers, Adventurer, Heroic, and Paragon (levels 1-30), with Epic and Immortal being treated as a modular options. This would allow retention of the classic D&D feel and the flattened power curve that they seem to be going for in D&D Next. The Epic Handbook and Immortal Handbook could follow the core game a year or two later and could be embraced by those wanting flavors of Exalted or The Matrix, or ignored by those wanting a more classic D&D feel.
So again, in summary: expand the levels and developmental spectrum, flatten the power curve, and make each tier more distinctive, and thus more interesting.
 

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Your description matches the traditional D&D level ranges if you half all nunbers (roughly). You can play what you describe with pretty much any of the editions.

One difference is low-level play in 4E, but from what is known so far from DDXP, it looks like level 1 will be grittier in 5E than 4E. We'll see.

As for post-level 51 play, it feels like a big shift in game focus, to the point where you play something like the old Master of Magic series. Ratzer than a character, you run a church or a nation. Sounds like big fun, but you don't really need D&D rules for that anymore.
 

On the other side of the spectrum we have the eternal problem (and even Holy Grail of D&D game design) of epic play. Probably the main reason that epic tier has been woefully neglected - in all editions but especially in 4E - is a variant of the law of diminishing returns; it is similar to the idea that the more specific a supplement is, the less people will buy it (e.g. The Player's Handbook has more widespread appeal than Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook).

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. 4e gave us a the most working version of epic play since.. well, perhaps ever. Every single class was supported for epic play and there were lots of monsters.

Sure, there weren't that many adventurers, and we could definitely have used more monsters. We could also have used more articles and such.

But 4e epic play was working, at least if you fiddled a bit with monster damage and tweaked some of their powers. Yes, it was grindy (as hell) but it was still more balanced and playable than in any of the previous editions.

IMO ofc course.

(note that "previous editions" in this case refers to 2e and later, as I never played epic in 1e or before.)
 

Interesting thoughts, but I don't think we need a one-size-fits-all approach to epic play. Some people are going to want a gritty feel even into the high levels. Others, while they want epic play, have different ideas of what it should be like. (Ascending to godhood should *definitely* be campaign-dependent.)

This strikes me as a prime candidate for modularity.
 

The Masters set in BECMI worked ok, and corresponds to 4e Epic.

4e 1st level works fine as 'off the farm', indeed I just played a Ravenloft game where our 1st level PCs were 13 year old children! The GM accomplishes this feeling very easily by not using any* minions below about 6th level; just use the standard monster stats. So no min-2 Human Rabble or min-1 kobolds and goblins, instead baseline goblin or kobold (equivalent to 1/2 hd monster in 1e) is a 1st level skirmisher (eg goblin warrior), while baseline human combatant, equivalent to a 0th leveller in 1e, is a 2nd level standard monster like the common human bandit.

Good NPC demographics can really solve a lot of issues, IME.

*You could use minion stats to represent non-combatants and trivial threats. A large rat with a nasty bite might be minion-1, an angry child with a rock might be human rabble-2.

Conversely, in an 'heroic out the gate' game, most goblins and kobolds are min-1s, the typical bandit is a min-2 human goon, etc. You've just quadrupled PC power relative to the world, and it took practically no work.

And the beauty of this approach is, by about 6th level they both converge and for higher level monsters you just use the same stats. Whether the 1st level PCs were farmboys or minor heroes soon ceases to matter.
 
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I wouldn't tie tiers to the kind of adventures the PCs will engage in. A 1st level character can be a king or other ruler - the level is only about personal skill and power.

Instead I would base tier definitions on PC power like this:

  1. 1-10: Characters are still (demi-)human. They "cheat" their way around physical limits through magic or magic items.
  2. 11-20: Characters begin to gain abilities that no mere mortal would naturally have.
  3. 21+: Characters are on the same power level as demigods and physical reality is no limit to what they can do.
 

I kind of like this but would prefer all the tiers to be renumbered starting with level 1, but with rules for how to carry a PC across tiers for campaigns that want to start off the farm but end up as gods.

Then have each tier also provides it own character creation rules that starts you off appropriately for that tier without having to go through and calc everything from all those prior levels and tiers.

Psychologically, everyone wants to start at level 1, but people have different notions of what level 1 should mean. Some old schoolers just say start at level X if you want to be tougher, but people don't like doing that either. I've seen the gamut of reactions from people who feel like they are "cheating" or haven't "earned" those levels, to people who are intimidated by starting at higher level even if that feeling may be misplaced.

By having Adventurer levels 1-10, Heroic 1-10, Paragon 1-10, etc. you can meet this need better. Its easier as a DM, if I say ok guys I want level 1 paragons for this campaign, and the game provides a clear baseline for starting out at that level, instead of having to slog through all the prior levels and calculate stuff when building that PC. Just some thoughts. :)
 

I just did something similar not that long ago, so here that is...more or less, taking into account and making a couple of alterations with 5e in mind.

While I don't so much consider the use of "tiers" as such to be necessary/outlined for the game. But it is a handy way of breaking down packaging and/or levels and standards of what a challenging adventure might entail. I would prefer the "ditching" of the 4e terminology as much as possible.

Adventurer "tier"/Beginner Set: Lvls 1-5. You are beginning your quest for fame and fortune, seeking out, taking on (or even becoming accidentally involved) local troubles and exploring strange goings-on "close to home". Get your feet wet and yourself familiarized with the rules and expectations of playing a RPG of fantasy adventure.

Champion "tier"
/Expert Set: Lvls 5-10. You know how to adventure and survive whatever perils the world wants to throw at you. You are even quite good at it and rise in power, glory, wealth and fame (or infamy) that few attain. You traverse the realms more or less at will and venture into regions few ever tread (inhospitable terrains -deserts, the artic tundra, deeper beneath the earth, oversea, undersea and aerial adventures.) Bringing you, the player, to a close with the PC achieving "Name Level" (obviously, this requires redefining name level to just be 10th, across the board, and that's it.) The character retires as a happy wealthy Lord or Lady and the player can make up new character...orrrr keep going....

Hero "tier" (i.e. you are a "Hero" in your own right, as opposed to a "Champion" which has the connotation that you are fighting for someone else)/"Name Level" Set: Lvls 10-20. You become Lords and Ladies among men. You develop and build your strongholds. Expand your territories and manage the trials and tribulations of your domain. You venture into realms and traverse the planes beyond your world that normal men (and adventurers!) fear to tread, or even know exist.

(even though BECMI already used this, it does follow the Adventurer/Champion/Hero motif better than any other tier title/name) Master "tier"/"Epic levels" set: Lvls 20+. You are Lords and Ladies of/beyond the Lords and Ladies of men. You attain Demi-godhood, essentially. Take part in (if not actually cause!) those monolithic battles among the forces of good and evil that expand across the world and multiverse, easily venture to other planes, take on Demon Lords and aiding (or assaulting) the Gods...and beyond.

The "Advanced" hardcover rules manuals would contain everything necessary from levels 1-20. With 20+ play left for an additional/expansion book/module.
 

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. 4e gave us a the most working version of epic play since.. well, perhaps ever. Every single class was supported for epic play and there were lots of monsters.

Sure, there weren't that many adventurers, and we could definitely have used more monsters. We could also have used more articles and such.

But 4e epic play was working, at least if you fiddled a bit with monster damage and tweaked some of their powers. Yes, it was grindy (as hell) but it was still more balanced and playable than in any of the previous editions.

Caveat: I haven't gotten my campaign to epic levels yet- we're early-mid paragon right now. (My original 4e group got to high paragon but then I moved a few hundred miles away.)

The problem with epic level 4e is that it doesn't feel very... well... epic.

I mean, my 3e epic campaign had amazing stuff go on. The pcs slew Asmodeus (on his own plane!), overthrew the world-spanning empire that had been in charge of my campaign for centuries in game time and since I started this campaign world about 17? years ago and put up their npc fighter as the new ruler of basically the world, went and destroyed one of those ancient monsters that was marked on all the campaign maps as part of their downtime, got hit by epic spells for 20d12 damage that were cast from other planes, etc. They did epic stuff- and they totally controlled the pace.

4e supports some of that, but it doesn't look like it allows the pcs to run the show like 3e did- and to my mind, that is a big part of what made it feel so truly epic. I mean, the epic 3e party could pretty much go anywhere they wanted anytime they wanted; see (or, pretty much, slay) anyone they wanted; they were the toughest guys in the world. It felt very, very different than it did even at 17th or 18th level.

4e looks to me like it never gets that holy cow, this is epic! feeling. I could be wrong, and don't get me wrong; I really like 4e.
 

Actually tiers are one of the things I disliked the most about 4e. I'd would much prefer to leave that discussion to the DM and individual groups rather than forcing it on us.
 

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