[playtest 2] Distressed by rogue damage

[BobTheNob]

Cant say Im a fan of the rogues sneak damage. It just feels SO high. Pulling that off every round with no expense (other than needing advantage, which the Thug can get pretty darn easily) seems pretty high.

First Point : feel free to disagree, in fact Im interested to here peoples takes on it.

Something that has been suggested in the past in these forums is separating rogue damage into two types : one for when you have surprise, and one for when you have advantage.

So the damage chart as is for SURPRISE attacks is fine (and that not stealth-stab-stealth-stab cycle in combat, thats jumping the unalert guard), but for advantage we have a different chart which is a bit more...reasonable?

Second point : In light of the rogues damage chart, what do yall think about separating surprise damage from advantage damage?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Something that has been suggested in the past in these forums is separating rogue damage into two types : one for when you have surprise, and one for when you have advantage.

I have done a rogue for a while now that does this. "Sneak Attack" grants improved threat range and "Backstab" grants a (smaller than core) damage increase, but only if the target has actually lost their Dex. "Combat Tactics", stolen from Trailblazer, gives the rogue a bonus to attack rolls sufficient to make up for any "lost" BAB due to not being a fighter, s well as a damage bonus of the same amount, and applies when opponents have lost their Dex or are flanked. Plays great, gets good reviews.

 

[Blackwarder]

As it stands right now, and without seeing it in actual play I believe that I wouldn't mind the rouge current sneak attack damage progression if it was only for melee attacks.

I'll further add that I would like for the rouge to be able to silently lower an enemy humanoid hp to zero if he manage to successfully sneak up on it and get behind it.

I don't like the fact that the defining mechanic for rouges is their sneak attack. Well that's actually not right, my main problem with sneak attack is that instead of it being the culmination of a finely thought out operation that is mostly played during the exploration phase that might fail spectacularly every minute but will be devastating to the enemy, it becomes nearly as common as the fighters expertise die.

To sum it up, I think that the rouge sneak attack mechanic should be split up to backstabbing that deals tons of damage (or even out right kill with fort sv to only be mortalu wounded) and than your run of the mill general skill to couse mayhem that shouldn't be a core concept but should be opt into.

Warder

 

[Falling Icicle]

The Rogue's sneak attack damage is absolutely off-the-charts ridiculous. I normally try to be as fair minded as I can about the things in the playtest, trying to understand where the developers were coming from when they made a rule. But I honestly am at a loss to explain this. I always though the sneak attack damage in 3.x was much too high, and this more than doubles it!

They said in this playtest they'd be lowering hp and damage across the board. Yet they doubled rogue sneak attack damage from even the very high amount it was 3rd edition? Why? If anything, this is even worse in this edition, since alot of things are much more conservative now. Spell damage no longer scales with caster level. The only way to get better than a 5d6 fireball is to prepare it as a higher level spell, so casters will have a hard time competing with other class's damage and can only do so a few times per day, when they can afford to use one of their highest level slots. Hit points, due to the extremely diminished effect of Con compared to 3e, will also be much, much lower in this edition. Don't get me wrong, I like all of those things, but it just makes the decision to give rogues (2d6 +1d6 per level) sneak atttack damage that much harder to fathom.

I really hope they reduce rogue sneak attack down to sane levels, something more like what they had in 4e (2d6 to start, 5d6 at epic levels).

 

[slobo777]

I think they are trading off ideas about how often someone gets advantage.

I expect we may see Rogues getting something much more like the Fighter's CS dice if that proves a popular mechanic (they are just airing it for the fighter at the moment, but its getting good press).

Rogues will be able to use them for different things, but the feel will be similar. For example they may be able to spend the dice more effectively when they have advantage, or spend them to get advantage on next attack with some kind of standard move, or spend them to avoid attacks of opportunity on a "spring attack" etc etc.

. . . just a little prediction, I'm expecting to see what would be considered 4E's martial power source abilities represented by these little dice pools on many "martial" classes . . .

 

[Falling Icicle]

I think they are trading off ideas about how often someone gets advantage.

That's a good possibility. If I recall correctly one of the developers said that getting advantage should usually take an action, so they may be balancing rogue sneak attack on the expectation that it will only happen once every other turn.

There are two problems I see with this approach. First, it's not very fun for the rogue if it's true. I'd rather have sneak attack be half as powerful and use it every round than only get to use it every other round.

Second, it's not that hard right now to get advantage, and I expect it to be even easier when more rules and options come out. But even now, a thug rogue or a rogue with a fighter friend who doesn't mind tripping the monsters can pretty easily get advantage every single turn. Trading one of the fighter's combat superiority dice for knock down is a pretty good deal when you're getting rogue sneak attack damage. Having advantage benefits the fighter alot, too.

I expect we may see Rogues getting something much more like the Fighter's CS dice if that proves a popular mechanic (they are just airing it for the fighter at the moment, but its getting good press).

Rogues will be able to use them for different things, but the feel will be similar. For example they may be able to spend the dice more effectively when they have advantage, or spend them to get advantage on next attack with some kind of standard move, or spend them to avoid attacks of opportunity on a "spring attack" etc etc.

I hope so. For one thing, not every rogue should need to act like a backstabbing assassin, IMO. I'd like it if they could trade in their sneak attack dice for other useful tricks.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

The Rogue's damage is not as bad as people think.

A 5th level Rogue with a Dex of 17 and using a Rapier/Scimitar/Shortsword(Melee) or a Shortbow(Ranged) attack a target with an AC 15 deals the following damage on average per round over 2 rounds with the following methods:

Hiding then Attacking: ~11.11 per round verse a target with a wisdom of 10.
Archery Specialty - Sniper(Ranged only): 11.55 per round if aiming then attacking with a ranged weapon.
Fighter with Str 17 and Knock Down(Melee only): ~15.5 per round if attacking every round but the Fighter is giving up 4.5 per round. The Rogue must act between the Fighter and the Target for this to work.
Thug Tactics: 15.125 if two other characters keep the target within reach.

 

[Zelc]

I'm pretty sure based on the way advantage and disadvantage cancel out, all you need to do to stop a Rogue from getting Sneak Attack damage is to stick him with at least one source of disadvantage and keep it on him. That makes it impossible for him to ever get advantage unless he can remove that source of disadvantage.

 

[Falling Icicle]

The Rogue's damage is not as bad as people think.

A 5th level rogue's sneak attack bonus is 6d6. That's 6-36 damage; 21 damage on average. And that's just sneak attack damage, it's even more when you include their weapon and Dex. A rogue with 17 Dex and a 1d6 weapon will deal an average of 27.5 total damage. I assume you got those low-looking numbers by factoring in missed attacks to get an average damage per round. The thing is, everyone can miss, and i can assure you the average DPR of other classes is much less than the rogue's, since they do far less damage when they hit. So whether you compare damage on hit or average damage per round, the rogue is still way ahead of everyone else.

In 3.x, a rogue's sneak attack bonus dealt about half as much damage as a wizard or sorcerer's highest level spell (typically 1d6/caster level). Now, a rogue's sneak attack bonus is often going to be more damage than a wizard's highest level spell, according to the examples we've been given. For example, fireball, a spell obtained at 5th level, deals 5d6 damage, 1d6 less than a rogue's sneak attack bonus at that level, and the rogue's sneak attack just keeps going up and up and up. That's a problem. Rogues should not be inflicting as much damage as a wizard's top daily spells every single round, even if it is only against a single target.

 

[1of3]

I'm pretty sure based on the way advantage and disadvantage cancel out, all you need to do to stop a Rogue from getting Sneak Attack damage is to stick him with at least one source of disadvantage and keep it on him. That makes it impossible for him to ever get advantage unless he can remove that source of disadvantage.

That would be reasonable, but in fact when asked after the last playtest in Rule of 3, it was explained that a canceled Advantage is still enough to trigger SA.