[Pathfinder] The Old School New School Fighter

[eyebeams]

I have to admit, one of the things I really miss from older versions of D&D was classes being in a hierarchy of complexity, starting with your basic fighter. In my group there are folks who had problems with 3e just because there wasn't an option like that - a guy who just hits, gets hit and doesn't worry about bonus feats and abilities - and some players want the system to go away more than others. I know I sometimes feel the fighter's slew of abilities sometimes detracts from the feel of "farmboy picks up a rusty sword" because ol' farmboy has enough feats to seem like a real pro, right from the start.

So for a couple of years now I've been wondering how you'd reintroduce the basic, no-special ability fighter to 3e and now Pathfinder. The challenge is how to provide a base boost that compares to the slew of per level abilities and provides a motive to stick with the class.

Plus, for maximum flexibility this guy should not *replace* the fighter, but should stand alongside him.

So I've been thinking of the following for this class . . . what do we call him? How about the Champion:

Proficient in all simple, and martial weapons and all armor and shields
d12 hit dice
+2 to attack rolls whenever the last class you advanced in was the Champion
+2 to AC whenever the last class you advanced in was the Champion
An everything-even saving throw scheme, perhaps similar to the old Monk's.

Essentially, I want a guy who is a very "generic hero." Very simple to run, with nothing beyond core feats to track - abilities don't change, aren't conditional if at all possible and can be folded into basic character traits. At high levels I suppose he's a Schwarzenegger type of classic action hero. *However* I don't think the above is perfect. So what would you folks suggest for this kind of "old school new school" fighter?

[jasin]

I think one could achieve much the same effect by simply picking static feats for your fighter, like Weapon Focus, Great Fortitude, Iron Will... just account for them in your totals and forget about them. When they start running out, just keep piling on Toughness.

[eyebeams]

Weapon focus is weapon by weapon - I want to avoid that. And Toughness sucks after you get a few levels. The objective is to get a character that is as close to the 1e/Basic fighter as possible, *and* in a way where the current fighter can work alongside the class.

[jasin]

Doesn't Pathfinder fix Toughness to work like 3.5's Improved Toughness, +1 hp/level?

But frankly, a player who feels that having +1 to some weapons but not others is too much complexity isn't going to be happy playing 3.5 or Pathfinder even if you create a completely static and straightforward class for them. They'll still get hit by spells and saddled with conditions, have to make jump checks, have to deal with DR, receive buffs from allied casters... any progress you manage to achieve by simplifying the class will pale into insignificance due to the overall game's complexity.

[Shazman]

Use the warrior as your base. Give him d12 hit dice and a +1 to hit and damage with all weapons every five levels. Maybe give him DR 1/- every five levels as well. Just keep in mind that he will be weaker than other base classes and while the class may be simple, the game itself will not be as simple as this "generic" warrior class.

[Voadam]

Originally Posted by eyebeams

So for a couple of years now I've been wondering how you'd reintroduce the basic, no-special ability fighter to 3e and now Pathfinder. The challenge is how to provide a base boost that compares to the slew of per level abilities and provides a motive to stick with the class.

Plus, for maximum flexibility this guy should not *replace* the fighter, but should stand alongside him.

So I've been thinking of the following for this class . . . what do we call him? How about the Champion:

Proficient in all simple, and martial weapons and all armor and shields
d12 hit dice
+2 to attack rolls whenever the last class you advanced in was the Champion
+2 to AC whenever the last class you advanced in was the Champion
An everything-even saving throw scheme, perhaps similar to the old Monk's.

What you are looking to emulate is the basic, not the 1e fighter style. 1e had weapon proficiencies and with UA weapon specialization. Basic in later iterations BECMI and rules cyclopedia started to add those in as well, but Moldvay Basic/Cook Expert sets provided a straightforward mechanically cookie cutter class who was great with whatever weapon he picked up or came across. I like that style of fighter a lot.

In 3e I do this by taking feats that are not single weapon specific like blindfighting, improved init, dodge (when house ruled to give a flat +1 to AC), combat reflexes, Improved toughness (+1 to hp/level) etc. I can then go out, smack monsters and use whatever comes along or feels right for weapons. I'm playing such a fighter in a 3.5 Temple of Elemental Evil game to good effect. I have not even picked up power attack as I want to simply attack monsters and not make judgments about probable attack success versus increased damage calculations.

I don't like your mechanics based on last level in the class. Ideally the class should stand equally well multiclassing or going all "champion".

I'd also go with "fighting man" over "Champion" for the old school OD&D reference and because champion has connotations with a paladin style god powered class such as the champion from Arcana Evolved.

d12 HD and good saves all around are good starts. You could easily give him more skills too.

A flat bonus to damage and/or attacks and/or AC every X number of levels could work well.

[Voadam]

Originally Posted by jasin

But frankly, a player who feels that having +1 to some weapons but not others is too much complexity isn't going to be happy playing 3.5 or Pathfinder even if you create a completely static and straightforward class for them. They'll still get hit by spells and saddled with conditions, have to make jump checks, have to deal with DR, receive buffs from allied casters... any progress you manage to achieve by simplifying the class will pale into insignificance due to the overall game's complexity.

I disagree. Having complex things happen to your character and dealing with them in game is a separate issue from wanting simple character options in character creation or combat or desiring to have a competent combatant who is not specialized in one weapon/tactic.

Having a desire for a conan type character be decent with both swords and axes, two handed weapons and weapon and shield and hurling weapon styles is not incompatible with enjoying playing 3.5 where there are rust monsters, druids with warp wood and rusting grasp, about 1/4 of the monsters seem to have improved sunder, and you can encounter all sorts of cool different weapons as loot.

This is the equivalent of wanting a warlock class for arcane casting, something mechanically and tactically simpler than a wizard or even a sorcerer.

[Aus_Snow]

You'll still have the problems of feats and skills per level, courtesy of the base system - regardless of this class's simplicity, that is.

But sure, you could basically give them d12 HP, good saves, good BAB, and perhaps +1 to attack rolls and AC per 5 levels. Doesn't look good to me, but it would 'work', in a sense.

If a lot of the stuff could be dumped on the DM (likely if we're talking total newbie here) then you could have passive abilities as well, like Evasion and Mettle. Basically stuff to make them even more 'awesome' (action hero-like?), but with zero input required by the player, on that level at least. Hey, why not spell resistance as well, at some point. After all, it's the DM who has to roll against that. DR, sure, that too. This time, DM simply tells you the damage you take (when that even happens). Energy resistances (all?) could be a reasonable option too, I suppose. Oh, and skill mastery for moving around type stuff or whatever (taking 10 is neat) . . .? Cover all or most of the bases, but when it comes to combat actions, they can pretty much just swing a sword. Hm. . . depending on feats. But still.

I've tried not to be discouraging there. Sorry if I failed. Anyway, it just seems like an odd fit with 3e or Pathfinder. But I do hope you find a suitable answer, and post it when you do!

[eyebeams]

Thanks for the responses so far. It is tricky trying to shoehorn this into Pathfinder but I've met enough people who want something like this that I think it fits. WRT powers that the DM manages, that's not bad, as long as the DM doesn't have to remember them/the player doesn't have to bring them up. Yes, it may seem I'm aiming for a truly idiot-proof character who can still bring the ruckus at high levels.

Skills are tricky. I'm thinking of a standard roster of "adventuring" skills -- more than the fighter.

And "Fighting Man," while sounding retro, unfortunately collides with the gender of some of the people who have enjoyed this idea in my group:-). But Champion sounds a little dorky, I admit. Unfortunately, Warrior is taken -- what can I do?

So how about:
* d12 HD
* Proficient in all weapons -- exotic, too
* Proficient in all armor
* Saves as a monk
* +1/level BAB (naturally)
* +1 to base AC, BAB and saving throws at level 1, +1 per 4 levels starting at 4(8/12/16/20)
* +2 to weapon damage at level 1, then 4/8/12/16/20
* Skill points 4 + Int Mod
* Class skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Profession, Ride, Stealth, Survival, Swim

So, still too weak?

[Aus_Snow]

Argh, damage! I knew I forgot about something that would be essential. I don't think a bonus at level 1 is in order, but 4/8/12/16/20, that could work. And the bonus to hit per 4 levels shouldn't (IMO) be literally a bonus to BAB. I wouldn't want them getting extra attacks ahead of everyone else, really. And their saves should be high enough anyway, IMO. Then again, maybe I'm just well and truly indoctrinated, thanks to d20 in general. . .

Let's see. . .

Level	BAB	Base saves	AC and to hit bonus	Weapon damage bonus
1st	+1	+2		+0			+0
2nd	+2	+3		+0			+0
3rd	+3	+3		+0			+0
4th	+4	+4		+1			+2
5th	+5	+4		+1			+2
6th	+6	+5		+1			+2
7th	+7	+5		+1			+2
8th	+8	+6		+2			+4
9th	+9	+6		+2			+4
10th	+10	+7		+2			+4
11th	+11	+7		+2			+4
12th	+12	+8		+3			+6
13th	+13	+8		+3			+6
14th	+14	+9		+3			+6
15th	+15	+9		+3			+6
16th	+16	+10		+4			+8
17th	+17	+10		+4			+8
18th	+18	+11		+4			+8
19th	+19	+11		+4			+8
20th	+20	+12		+5			+10

Level	BAB	Base saves	AC bonus	Weapon damage bonus
1st	+2	+3		+1		+2
2nd	+3	+4		+1		+2
3rd	+4	+4		+1		+2
4th	+6	+6		+2		+4
5th	+7	+6		+2		+4
6th	+8	+7		+2		+4
7th	+9	+7		+2		+4
8th	+11	+9		+3		+6
9th	+12	+9		+3		+6
10th	+13	+10		+3		+6
11th	+14	+10		+3		+6
12th	+16	+12		+4		+8
13th	+17	+12		+4		+8
14th	+18	+13		+4		+8
15th	+19	+13		+4		+8
16th	+21	+15		+5		+10
17th	+22	+15		+5		+10
18th	+23	+16		+5		+10
19th	+24	+16		+5		+10
20th	+26	+18		+6		+12

Interesting. Just helps me sometimes to see them like that. Hm. . .

[NotAYakk]

Champion
BaB: +1/level
HD: d12
Proficient with all weapons and armor.
All saves are good.

         Weapon    Extremely  Second    Physical       Combat
Level    Mastery   Tough      Chance    Perfection     Mastery
 1        +2        +0         -           -              -
 2        +2        +2         -           -              -
 3        +4        +2         -           -              -
 4        +4        +4         -           -              -
 5        +6        +4         -           -              -
 6        +6        +6         1           -              -
 7        +8        +6         1           -             +1
 8        +8        +8         1         +2/-/-          +1
 9        +10       +8         1         +2/-/-          +1
10        +10       +10        1         +2/-/-          +1
11        +15       +10        1         +2/+2/-         +1
12        +15       +15        2         +2/+2/-         +1
13        +20       +15        2         +2/+2/-         +2
14        +20       +20        2         +4/+2/+2        +2
15        +30       +20        2         +4/+2/+2        +2
16        +30       +25        2         +4/+2/+2        +3
17        +40       +25        2         +6/+4/+4        +3
18        +40       +30        3         +6/+4/+4        +3
19        +50       +30        3         +6/+4/+4        +4
20        +50       +35        3         +6/+6/+6        +5

Full BaB. High Saves. d12 HD. 4 skill points per level.

Features: (all are ex)
Weapon Mastery: The first time in a round that you hit with a weapon, add your Weapon Mastery damage to the amount of damage you deal.

Extremely Tough: You are granted temporary HP equal to your Extremely Tough value in the table above at the start of each of your turns.

Second Chance: On each of your turns, you may cause a d20 roll to be rerolled. This may be your roll, or someone elses that affects you. The number of second chances you get is on the above table. Your use of second chances resets at the end of your turn.

Physical Perfection: You gain an enhancement bonus to your physical stats (str, con and dex) equal to the values in the above table. The first time you gain a bonus in a given column, you pick which stat is applies to.

Combat Mastery: When wearing armor, shields or weapons, you may consider your weapon to have an enhancement bonus equal to your Combat Mastery value. In addition, you gain a deflection bonus to AC and an enhancement bonus to will, fortitude and reflex equal to your Combat Mastery value.

---

This class isn't 'featureless' -- it has 5 features.

Two of the features help make it less dependent on equipment and buffs from other party members.

The Weapon Mastery gives it an ability to deal damage. It applies once per turn, because that way I can make it larger, and it is easier to use.

Extremely Tough makes it able to actually take damage. It isn't DR, just auto-replacing temporary HP.

Second Chance both makes the character increasingly accurate, and tough to take out with a lucky roll. It is an easy mechanic to understand -- "I don't like that roll, roll it again". It resets at the end of your turn, so you can use up your second chances defending yourself first -- and use the leftover ones to punish your foes.

[Nellisir]

Originally Posted by NotAYakk

Champion
BaB: +1/level
HD: d12
Proficient with all weapons and armor.
All saves are good.

Heck, I'd take this for one level and then multiclass into fighter.

[eyebeams]

Originally Posted by Aus_Snow

Argh, damage! I knew I forgot about something that would be essential. I don't think a bonus at level 1 is in order, but 4/8/12/16/20, that could work. And the bonus to hit per 4 levels shouldn't (IMO) be literally a bonus to BAB. I wouldn't want them getting extra attacks ahead of everyone else, really. And their saves should be high enough anyway, IMO. Then again, maybe I'm just well and truly indoctrinated, thanks to d20 in general. . .

Let's see. . .

Level	BAB	Base saves	AC and to hit bonus	Weapon damage bonus
1st	+1	+2		+0			+0
2nd	+2	+3		+0			+0
3rd	+3	+3		+0			+0
4th	+4	+4		+1			+2
5th	+5	+4		+1			+2
6th	+6	+5		+1			+2
7th	+7	+5		+1			+2
8th	+8	+6		+2			+4
9th	+9	+6		+2			+4
10th	+10	+7		+2			+4
11th	+11	+7		+2			+4
12th	+12	+8		+3			+6
13th	+13	+8		+3			+6
14th	+14	+9		+3			+6
15th	+15	+9		+3			+6
16th	+16	+10		+4			+8
17th	+17	+10		+4			+8
18th	+18	+11		+4			+8
19th	+19	+11		+4			+8
20th	+20	+12		+5			+10

Level	BAB	Base saves	AC bonus	Weapon damage bonus
1st	+2	+3		+1		+2
2nd	+3	+4		+1		+2
3rd	+4	+4		+1		+2
4th	+6	+6		+2		+4
5th	+7	+6		+2		+4
6th	+8	+7		+2		+4
7th	+9	+7		+2		+4
8th	+11	+9		+3		+6
9th	+12	+9		+3		+6
10th	+13	+10		+3		+6
11th	+14	+10		+3		+6
12th	+16	+12		+4		+8
13th	+17	+12		+4		+8
14th	+18	+13		+4		+8
15th	+19	+13		+4		+8
16th	+21	+15		+5		+10
17th	+22	+15		+5		+10
18th	+23	+16		+5		+10
19th	+24	+16		+5		+10
20th	+26	+18		+6		+12

Interesting. Just helps me sometimes to see them like that. Hm. . .

It is interesting. Plus, early extra attacks sounds neat to me even if they aren't strictly BtB for d20/Pathfinder design principles. Again, competing with characters that have a lot of "smackdown" abilities or topped-up complex feat trees is the challenge, but without making basic capabilities too good.

I wonder if there would be an interest in stripped-and-boosted versions of other classes, with far fewer special abilities but more potent base abilities.

[Remathilis]

Originally Posted by eyebeams

So, still too weak?

Not at all.

First off, you've given the champion proficiency in a bunch of additional weapons which cost a feat each; including some of the games best (hello spiked chain!) While a traditional fighter may have one exotic weapon, there is no reason for this guy not to find grab them all!

Second, without seeing the final pathfinder fighter, its hard to say exactly what they are giving up. So far as written they are PERFECT 1st level dips for fighters, barbarians, paladins, and anyone else who wants to be a great combatant. At first level, you're getting two better saves, a dozen or so "free" weapon proficiencies, better skills, and a bump to hit/dmg/ac/saves all for the "cost" of a bonus feat. I'd certainly want to play a champion1/fighter19!

This class suffers the same problem ranger and paladin did in 3.0; great abilities to grab at first level, then go onto your "real" class.

Personally, if the "simple class" is so great; it shouldn't need all sort of incentives to be played. It should be on par with the fighter. Keep the bumped HD, but keep the same skills/skill points, saves, and weapon proficiencies as a fighter. Also, I'd make the bump a flat +1 to AC/Save/Attack/Damage every 5 levels (unless your ruling this doesn't stack with magical items).

my 2 cp

[eyebeams]

Originally Posted by Remathilis

Not at all.

First off, you've given the champion proficiency in a bunch of additional weapons which cost a feat each; including some of the games best (hello spiked chain!) While a traditional fighter may have one exotic weapon, there is no reason for this guy not to find grab them all!

Good point; Let's get rid of that then.

Second, without seeing the final pathfinder fighter, its hard to say exactly what they are giving up.

I think the Beta is pretty indicative of it.

So far as written they are PERFECT 1st level dips for fighters, barbarians, paladins, and anyone else who wants to be a great combatant. At first level, you're getting two better saves, a dozen or so "free" weapon proficiencies, better skills, and a bump to hit/dmg/ac/saves all for the "cost" of a bonus feat. I'd certainly want to play a champion1/fighter19!

That is a problem. The barbarian is a good yardstick and I admit that fast movement and rage are worse. This is a convincing argument to put the BAB and AC bonuses off until 4th. However . . .

This class suffers the same problem ranger and paladin did in 3.0; great abilities to grab at first level, then go onto your "real" class.

. . . I don't personally give a lot of weight to arguments that rely too heavily on build logic alone simply because it's not how 3e games tend to work in practice.

Personally, if the "simple class" is so great; it shouldn't need all sort of incentives to be played. It should be on par with the fighter. Keep the bumped HD, but keep the same skills/skill points, saves, and weapon proficiencies as a fighter. Also, I'd make the bump a flat +1 to AC/Save/Attack/Damage every 5 levels (unless your ruling this doesn't stack with magical items).

my 2 cp

Seems too weak compared to other classes as you level up. The Pathfinder Fighter is getting tons of extra feats, automatic weapon group to hit bonuses, AC bonuses from certain armor types and bravery.

However, looking back at the Pathfinder fighter we have these AC, to hit and damage bonuses limited by weapon, capping at +4. So I can see further merits for your argument of +1/5 starting at 5th.