Anyone have any opinion on how you would alter the Warforged to fit into Pathfinder?
My thinking is that a simple dropping of the -2 wisdom would work fairly well. This would give them a single bonus stat and a single negative stat which is in line with most Pathfinder races.
Anyone have any opinion on how you would alter the Warforged to fit into Pathfinder?
My thinking is that a simple dropping of the -2 wisdom would work fairly well. This would give them a single bonus stat and a single negative stat which is in line with most Pathfinder races.
Opinions?
I'd say Immunity to poison is now far too great of a boon.
If the group was using the "Powerful races" option, the 'Forgery might be within reason.
I dont agree. The Warforged has no natural healing and will gain only 1/2 benefit from healing spells or potions. So he will be spending points or abiities of his own for healing. The immunity to poison and disease merely balance this out.
Not needing to eat, sleep, or breath is still a huge advantage.
Not really.
No need to eat is a minor thing. When was the last time sustenance came into play in any campaign you were in?
Sleep is a little more useful but the rest of the party still does. It just means the Warforged always takes watch at night.
The Breath can be the most useful as it allows some nasty situations like grapple happy monk warforged to jump into water with a foe and drown them quick. But that is a pretty specific circumstance. It may grant immunity to Stinking Cloud but that would be up to the DM. A Warforged still has a sense of smell and the cloud will still stink to them.
I still think the no natural healing and half benefit from heal spells is going to be a huge balancer.
If warforged exist in any numbers there will be poisons made to stop them - way too elegant a solution to deal with rampaging hulks.
The problem with this line of logic is the fact that the campaign world that created them does not even have poisons to deal with them. The whole idea is that their formation and design precludes a way for poison to hurt them.
Of course this has its balances. A Rust Monster can ruin the day of the average adventurer but it is hardly a deadly threat. The same cannot be said to Warforged. There are balances to this ability. Warp Wood, Heat Metal, etc, there are spells that do not directly hurt normal PCs that will hurt a Warforged.
Anyone have any opinion on how you would alter the Warforged to fit into Pathfinder?
My thinking is that a simple dropping of the -2 wisdom would work fairly well. This would give them a single bonus stat and a single negative stat which is in line with most Pathfinder races.
Opinions?
Are the warforged any less powerful as a Pf race? If not, that would be an argument for the stats staying the same, if everything else stays the same. Also, removing the Wis penalty encourages warforged clerics and druids, which may be a design goal, but I would consider a negative.
Since Pathfinder constructs are not immune to critical hits, that would be a reason to get rid of their fortification ability. The rest of their immunities still make sense. They don't have blood or any kind of fluid, so poisons would be nonsensical. You could argue that they are "living" enough that they can be energy drained.
In any case, spare parts and the like are not an issue, since they can be repaired using any of the techniques that work on constructs.
I would make one of two suggestions wrt warforged:
1) Drop the fortification, leave everything the same
2) Rebuild them as monstrous humanoids, making living construct a subtype with whatever immunities you deem appropriate. I make take a page from 4e and give them +2 natural armor and allow them to bond with suits of armor, rather than using the weird and kludgy feat-based approach.
The problem with this line of logic is the fact that the campaign world that created them does not even have poisons to deal with them. The whole idea is that their formation and design precludes a way for poison to hurt them.
Yes but they're not in that campaign world. They are in a new campaign world unless you are converting Eberron for Pathfinder. Poisons are a considerable rework of the rules and I don't think they automatically get a miss.
For all you know their living components are susceptible to viral agents and their mechanical\magical components are susceptible to harvesting and parasites.
Even if the poisons are rare, they'd be a damn useful way of controlling the uncontrollable and perhaps completely safe to flesh and blood natives besides .
I disagree that having a character with no physical needs doesn't affect game play. They have no societal dependencies and no necessary cost of living. That makes them tremendously independent. Perhaps not a game breaker but definitely a big advantage.
Quote:
2) Rebuild them as monstrous humanoids, making living construct a subtype with whatever immunities you deem appropriate. I make take a page from 4e and give them +2 natural armor and allow them to bond with suits of armor, rather than using the weird and kludgy feat-based approach.
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What I did for my games was
War forged: +2 con +2 int -2 cha and dropped the light fortification. The reasons being they needed a boost to one mental stat, wisdom didn't seem to fit but Int did, as they are very fast learners. The -2 charisma seemed to fit given they just do not know how to interact with some one not giving orders
I took away the light fortification as it was a left over from constructs not being able to be crited. As that is now gone, I saw no reason to leave it. As for other immunitys I really can not see a justified way to remove them. They still have alot of drawbacks. Not being able to heal is huge. Sure a wand can fix that but it's another resource on the party, even channel only half effects the warforged who is often they guy in the front taking the big hits
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Are the warforged any less powerful as a Pf race? If not, that would be an argument for the stats staying the same, if everything else stays the same. Also, removing the Wis penalty encourages warforged clerics and druids, which may be a design goal, but I would consider a negative.
Since Pathfinder constructs are not immune to critical hits, that would be a reason to get rid of their fortification ability. The rest of their immunities still make sense. They don't have blood or any kind of fluid, so poisons would be nonsensical. You could argue that they are "living" enough that they can be energy drained.
In any case, spare parts and the like are not an issue, since they can be repaired using any of the techniques that work on constructs.
I would make one of two suggestions wrt warforged:
1) Drop the fortification, leave everything the same
2) Rebuild them as monstrous humanoids, making living construct a subtype with whatever immunities you deem appropriate. I make take a page from 4e and give them +2 natural armor and allow them to bond with suits of armor, rather than using the weird and kludgy feat-based approach.
As a rule everything got a cookie or two in Pathfinder over straight 3.5 rules. Races got more powerful (humans get to add a +2 to any one stat they want) and all of the classes increased in power.
Based on this fact alone anything brought in from bog standard 3.4 is going to need a boost unless its been generally deemed to have already been overpowered. While some of the features of the Warforged are nice they are certainly not overpowered. So a bump is needed.
If you leave the warforged "as is" and say they have "no favored class," they'll be reasonably well-balanced as a Pathfinder race.
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What I did for my games was
War forged: +2 con +2 int -2 cha and dropped the light fortification. The reasons being they needed a boost to one mental stat, wisdom didn't seem to fit but Int did, as they are very fast learners. The -2 charisma seemed to fit given they just do not know how to interact with some one not giving orders
I took away the light fortification as it was a left over from constructs not being able to be crited. As that is now gone, I saw no reason to leave it. As for other immunitys I really can not see a justified way to remove them. They still have alot of drawbacks. Not being able to heal is huge. Sure a wand can fix that but it's another resource on the party, even channel only half effects the warforged who is often they guy in the front taking the big hits
I think this just about fixes war forged. The pathfinder races are standing around +1ish Ecl. Even though pathfinder doesn't relay support such things really.
As a rule everything got a cookie or two in Pathfinder over straight 3.5 rules. Races got more powerful (humans get to add a +2 to any one stat they want) and all of the classes increased in power.
Based on this fact alone anything brought in from bog standard 3.4 is going to need a boost unless its been generally deemed to have already been overpowered. While some of the features of the Warforged are nice they are certainly not overpowered. So a bump is needed.
The races and classes that got the proverbial bump were the core, original, weakest of their lot. The improvements were made to make them competitive with material released after the 3.5 core. Bumping up everything else just because the core classes and races got benefits is just an arms race.
Also, warforged were widely considered a sort of LA +.5 race. Not quite deserving LA +1 but "better" than the core races. As such, they're likely very nicely balanced now.
I'm deeply in the "leave them alone" faction. Neither a nerf nor a boost need they.
The races and classes that got the proverbial bump were the core, original, weakest of their lot. The improvements were made to make them competitive with material released after the 3.5 core. Bumping up everything else just because the core classes and races got benefits is just an arms race.
Also, warforged were widely considered a sort of LA +.5 race. Not quite deserving LA +1 but "better" than the core races. As such, they're likely very nicely balanced now.
I'm deeply in the "leave them alone" faction. Neither a nerf nor a boost need they.
I disagree completely if for no other reason than most of the Warforged cookies are defensive and thus very easily ignored. Poison immune, disease immune, and even energy drain immune are great, but only when the party gets attacked by those. If the party isnt then all you have is useless talents while others are running around with bonus skills, bonus feats, and stat bonuses they get to use in every single encounter.
In the end the mot valuable cookie the Forged gets is the light fortification bonus and technically since that is based off the golem concept one could easily argue that it does not apply since Pathfinder rogues can use sneak attack on golems now.
So in any given pathfinder session what do you get? +2 on the weakest physical stat, -2 on two mental stats, and a bunch of immunities that come up maybe one battle in 10 (probably less since the DM will know they are pointless). Doesnt sound all that great, much less useful, compared to a pathfinder human who get +2 to any stat they chose, bonus feat, and skill points.
I disagree completely if for no other reason than most of the Warforged cookies are defensive and thus very easily ignored. Poison immune, disease immune, and even energy drain immune are great, but only when the party gets attacked by those. If the party isnt then all you have is useless talents while others are running around with bonus skills, bonus feats, and stat bonuses they get to use in every single encounter.
In the end the mot valuable cookie the Forged gets is the light fortification bonus and technically since that is based off the golem concept one could easily argue that it does not apply since Pathfinder rogues can use sneak attack on golems now.
So in any given pathfinder session what do you get? +2 on the weakest physical stat, -2 on two mental stats, and a bunch of immunities that come up maybe one battle in 10 (probably less since the DM will know they are pointless). Doesnt sound all that great, much less useful, compared to a pathfinder human who get +2 to any stat they chose, bonus feat, and skill points.
Well heck We better rethink dwarves cause you don't get hostile spells cast on you every adventure. Or rethink Gnomes cause we don't fight Goblins all the time. Maybe Any one of a warforges immunity only come up every now and than But they have so many at least one of them is bound to come up relatively often.
That said however maybe we should either give them one more plus or take away one of their minuses. After-all they don't get the Fortification Goody anymore.
Well heck We better rethink dwarves cause you don't get hostile spells cast on you every adventure. Or rethink Gnomes cause we don't fight Goblins all the time. Maybe Any one of a warforges immunity only come up every now and than But they have so many at least one of them is bound to come up relatively often.
That said however maybe we should either give them one more plus or take away one of their minuses. After-all they don't get the Fortification Goody anymore.
Yeah, because immunity to disease is completly on par with bonus to saves against spells.
1.) Armor Adjustment (+2 armor, 10% ASF) = Leather Armor. 15 gp.
2.) Light Fortification Armor Ability = 1,000 gp (since they don't need another +1 to enchant it).
3.) Non-necessity to breathe = Necklace of Adaptation. 9,000 gp.
4.) Immunity to Poison = Periapt of Proof against Poison. 27,000 gp.
5.) No Eat/Drink/Sleep = Ring of Sustenance. 2,500 gp.
6.) Immunity to Disease = Periapt of Health. 7,500 gp.
7.) Immunity to Paralysis = No direct analog, but an element of the Ring of Free Movement (maybe 5,000 of its 40,000 gp cost).
8.) Immune to Energy Drain = Death Ward Armor Ability (MIC 10) 1,000 gp.
There are no items that grant blanket immunity to sleep, fatigue, or the sickened condition.
Total Cost of WF abilities = 53,015 gp. In other words, the sum total in gold of a PC between 9th and 10th level.
That doesn't include the cost of the free permanent suit of Dwarven/Adamantine Plate (16,500) or Elven/Mithral Chain (5,150) that a WF can get a 1st level for a feat.
Granted, this is partially balanced by worse than normal ability scores (net -2), no bonus languages (common only, no free for Int), partial healing immunity, and a few corner-case special weaknesses (fear rust monsters, and druids if your campaign features a lot of those).
Still, if you think they're under the curve compared to the seven core races, feel free to add on.
Doesnt sound all that great, much less useful, compared to a pathfinder human who get +2 to any stat they chose, bonus feat, and skill points.
Being able to pick your bonus is only a marginal improvement. Players don't determine challenges or adventures and shouldn't have a much better idea than the rules at large. Besides I think there is a sort of bias towards humans as the core race - helps explain why there are so many of them.
You seem determined to have a more powerful warforged - good for you. Good luck.
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