Magus (Playtest Revision 3)

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Howdy, all!

So, I'll be playing in a Pathfinder campaign soon, and the GM has allowed us to use the Magus character class (playtest revision 3 is available from the Paizo website). Since I am a long-time fan of spellblades, gishes, bladesingers, and their relatives, I've decided to take him up on it.

I just have a couple questions.

1. Is there any indication how much starting cash they get? If not, I assume I should go with the Fighter starting cash so that I can actually afford a martial weapon? I'll ask the GM, as well, but I wanted to see if anyone had a direction they had used before that worked out okay.

2. Anyone have any experience playing with this class? Anything immediately jump out at you as being particularly overpowered or underpowered? We'll be submitting our playtest notes, so I don't want to retread trodden ground.

3. Spellstrike and Spell Combat:

Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the offhand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free, while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action. If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus to his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks. The magus must have one hand free to use this ability, even if the spell being cast does not contain somatic components.

Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon as part of casting this spell. If used with spell combat, this does not grant an additional attack.

Specifically, the bolded part of the Spellstrike ability.

Spell combat allows me to "dual wield" a spell and my weapon attack, such that a full-round action looks like:

A. Weapon attack at -2, spell; or
B. Spell, weapon attack at -2

I can also, as a standard action:

A. Weapon attack; or
B. Spell; or
C. Touch spell + weapon attack

Is the last line of Spellstrike saying that, as a full-round action:

A. Weapon attack at -2, spell; or
B. Weapon attack at -2, touch spell + weapon attack; or
C. Spell, weapon attack at -2; or
D. Touch spell + weapon attack, weapon attack at -2

... B and D are illegal? If so, why would you ever combine Spell Combat and Spellstrike?

 

[pawsplay]

You would only ever combine them if you felt the damage output of your weapon justified a greater miss chance, and you weren't moving. In other words, if you cast a touch spell, it would be just like casting the spell as a standard action, except you would get iterative normal attacks with your weapon, and everything takes a -2.

In most cases you are better off casting the spell normally in confunction with spell combat, and using an option like Power Attack, instead.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You would only ever combine them if you felt the damage output of your weapon justified a greater miss chance, and you weren't moving. In other words, if you cast a touch spell, it would be just like casting the spell as a standard action, except you would get iterative normal attacks with your weapon, and everything takes a -2

How is that not just normal Spell Combat? As in, I don't see anything there that touches on the rules for Spell Strike.

 

[jefgorbach]

As I quickly read it, Spell Combat requires the caster use a light or one-handed melee weapon whereas Spell Strike works in conjunction with ANY melee weapon.

 

[Baveboi]

I played a magus twice now, on a game a friend is runing. He's very, very versatile. You can move and cast spells and attack, you can make full round actions and cast spells and use many powers (the magus arcanas) to boot.

All abilities more than make up for the lack of spell progression and even tho you won't see a fireball at level 7 or later, your casting level is still high. That gives you better uses of low level spells (shocking grasp is 5d6 at level 5 normally).

That being said, I present the truth about Magus: the mechanics are not there to make combos. They are there to fulfill diferent roles and create the possibility of actions where there would be none/few.
Spell Strike and Spell Combat, specifically, are made to be used separatedly at diferent situations.

When you get Magus Arcanas/more spells/Spell Pool you will be able to pimp up more actions, but in a early game its basically spellcasting-hacken-slashing tiem.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, the first game is tomorrow. Here's the character I put together:

------------------------------

[size=+1]Ellandryn tel'Barad'anur[/size]
Elf Magus 2 (Favored: SP x2)

Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Class Skills (Ranks): Climb (2), K (Arcana) (2), K (Dungeoneering) (2), Spellcraft (2)
Cross-Class Skills (Ranks): Acrobatics (2), Perform (Dance) (1), Perform (Sing) (1)

Traits:
Magic: Focused Mind (+2 trait bonus on Concentration checks)
Combat: Fencer (+1 on AoOs with bladed weapons)

Feats: Armor Prof (Light), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Prof (Simple, Martial, Elven)

BAB: +1
CMB: +2
CMD: 15

AC: 17 (Touch 13, Flat-Footed 14)

Main Attacks:
Rapier +4 [+5 on AoOs] (1d6+1, 18/x2)
Ray / Orb +4 (By spell)
Shortbow +4 (1d6, 20/x3, 60' range)

Spells Known (4 / 2+1):
0th-Level: Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Open / Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Spark
1st-Level: Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Enlarge Person, Floating Disk, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Stone Fist, True Strike

Abilities:
Class: Arcane Pool (4 / day); Arcane Enhancement +1 (Swift action; Cost: 1; +1 Enhancement for 1 minute, counts as Arcane Strike for prereqs); Spell Combat I (Full-round action; make all melee attacks at -2 and cast one standard action Magus spell; take up to a -3 additional penalty for an equal bonus on Concentration checks to cast defensively); Spellstrike (Make a melee weapon attack as a free action in place of a melee touch attack when casting a touch spell)
Other: Low-Light Vision, Elven Immunities, Elven Magic, Keen Senses


[sblock=Level 1]Elf Magus 1 (Favored: SP)

Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Class Skills (Ranks): Climb (1), K (Arcana) (1), K (Dungeoneering) (1), Spellcraft (1)
Cross-Class Skills (Ranks): Acrobatics (1), Perform (Dance) (1)

Traits:
Magic: Focused Mind (+2 trait bonus on Concentration checks)
Combat: Fencer (+1 on AoOs with bladed weapons)

Feats: Armor Prof (Light), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Prof (Simple, Martial, Elven)

BAB: +0
CMB: +1
CMD: 14

AC: 17 (Touch 13, Flat-Footed 14)

Main Attacks:
Rapier +3 [+4 on AoOs] (1d6+1, 18/x2)
Ray / Orb +3 (By spell)
Shortbow +3 (1d6, 20/x3, 60' range)

Spells Known (3 / 1+1):
0th-Level: Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Open / Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Spark
1st-Level: Burning Hands, Enlarge Person, Floating Disk, Shield, Stone Fist, True Strike

Abilities:
Class: Arcane Pool (4 / day); Arcane Enhancement +1 (Swift action; Cost: 1; +1 Enhancement for 1 minute, counts as Arcane Strike for prereqs); Spell Combat I (Full-round action; make all melee attacks at -2 and cast one standard action Magus spell; take up to a -3 additional penalty for an equal bonus on Concentration checks to cast defensively)
Other: Low-Light Vision, Elven Immunities, Elven Magic, Keen Senses[/sblock]

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It kinda stinks that you have to spend a feat for Weapon Finesse, and then another feat for Agile Maneuvers. Oh well!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Also, quick question (not that I expect it to come up in the first session, necessarily, but ...)

How does Arcane Pool interact with a masterwork weapon?

At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. This ability counts as the Arcane Strike feat for meeting any prerequisites. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

My reading is that if I had a MW Rapier, for instance, I could expend a point from my Arcane Pool and get a weapon with a +2 Enhancement bonus to attack, and a +1 Enhancement bonus to damage (i.e., a +2/+1 weapon).

I think this works because if I start with a +1 weapon (+1/+1), and expend a point, I get a +2 weapon (+2/+2).

Is that right?

 

[Glade Riven]

Magic does not stack with masterwork.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Normally, I'd agree with you, but in the normal case magic does not stack with masterwork because they both provide Enhancement bonuses (one to attack, one to attack and damage).

The magus ability is different, however, in that it expressly stacks with any enhancement bonus the weapon already has. Moreover, some people, at least, over on the Paizo boards are indicating it goes the way I originally assumed it did.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

----------------

Had our first playtest session this weekend, and things went well.

We had three combats, which caused me to spend 3/4 of my Arcane Pool enhancing my weapon. Since I don't have anything else to with it at the moment, this worked out fine, but I can see a time coming when I'll have other demands on the points, and then it'll be a real juggling act. Commentary on the Paizo boards is split (and heavily divided!) on whether they get enough points. Looking at some of the higher-level Magus Arcanas, my thoughts are currently siding with the "too low" crowd, but we'll see!

I ran out of interesting spells really quickly, but that's true for all low-level casters IME. I started the day with my memorized spells being:

0: Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Flare
1: Burning Hands, Shield

I caught 4 enemies in the BH cone, but rolled a 2 for damage, so it was not particularly impressive (especially vs. the Half-Orc sorceror's +CL, +1 damage per die BH! ). I'd hoped that my proclivity for being in the melee-mix would increase the value of those kinds of spells, and it might, but at this level it's not worth bothering with. Shield, on the other hand, was a good choice - an AC of 21 (+4 armor, +4 shield, +3 dex) is pretty good at 1st-level (but only for 1 combat, unfortunately).

For most of my turns during combat, I ended up using Spell Combat and mixing in a Ray of Frost. An additional 1d3 damage at the cost of an additional -2 penalty to my main attack is below Power Attack in the attack-bonus-to-damage-roll calculus, but it was fun, if somewhat mechanically inferior.

I only skimmed the Pathfinder rules, so I'd missed the part where ray spells provoke two AoOs (one for casting, one for making a ranged attack, and the second happens even if the spell was cast defensively), so there should have been a couple more AoOs coming at me. Largely, though, I used the heck out of 5' steps so that I didn't have to cast defensively (and therefore didn't need to worry about the second AoO, either). I never needed to use the additional-attack-penalty-for-concentration-bonus trade-off, and rolled well on my DC 16 concentration checks (with a +6 bonus; +1 CL, +3 Int, +2 Trait), so I only "lost" one Ray of Frost to concentration failure.

I really wish I had a melee touch attack 0th-level spell; it would synergize much better with my class abilities - especially with the new AoO provocation Pathfinder added. Even then, though, 0-level spells are not tremendously exciting (I mean, they *are* 0th-level, so they shouldn't be that great), and like all Vancian casters, it's pretty easy to run out of the "cool spells." This should get better with more levels (and more spells). That said, Ray of Frost is being switched out for Daze in my line-up, since damage-dealing is apparently still weaker, overall, than save-or-die/-suck spells.

I took two hits for damage in the three combats, taking me from 9HP to 1HP. This reinforces my belief that 3.X / PF characters are still too fragile at low-levels, and that I prefer the Saga / 4E method of not dying immediately. The person playing our healer wasn't present in this game (she'll be there next time we play; Elven Paladin, I think), so that would help, but slightly better damage rolls by the opponents would have put most of the party unconscious in the second combat (the first combat only lasted two rounds + a surprise round; the second was more involved).

All-in-all, I had fun playing the character and class, and am looking forward to the next session.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Second Session!

Last weekend, we played our second session of the campaign. One character (a Dwarven Fighter, played by my wife) was missing, but two others (Elven Paladin, Human Rogue) joined us.

This session, I rolled much less well than the previous game across two combats, but did well in out-of-combat knowledge checks (Dungeoneering and Arcana) to get some clues.

As I mentioned in my last post, I switched around my 0-level spells, and subbed in Daze for Ray of Frost, and Flare for Detect Magic. I also swapped out my Burning Hands for another Shield spell. We then fought in two combats: the berzerker goblin in the boy's closet, and the larger-scale combat in the furnace room of the Glassworks.

In the first combat, I'd volunteered to help pull the poor husband from the goblin's hidey-hole upon our arrival, and that put me right in range to get swiped as it came boiling out. I then lost initiative to it as combat started, and it attacked me again, dropping me down to 3 HP before my first action. On my turn, I utilized Spell Combat, attacking with my rapier (at a net attack bonus of +1), missing (predictably), backing up 5', and casting Daze (which succeeded). I hung back and cast Daze for the remainder of the fight, and I was able to stop the goblin's next turn, as well, denying it two rounds of attacks. Unfortunately, it made its next couple saving throws, so that was the effectual end of my participation in the combat. Luckily, our Elven Barbarian, Elven Paladin, and Human Fighter (focusing on the armored scarf!) remembered how to fight, and quickly took the annoying gobbo apart.

In the next combat - against a horde of weak-ish goblins and a half-elven archer - I proceeded to accomplish (largely) both jack and s#&%. My first round's actions included casting Shield and empowering my rapier with my Arcane Pool ability, and advancing towards two goblins near the door, preventing them from moving around (without provoking AoOs). The rest of the party filtered into the room, and my next maneuver was to move into flanking position, defensively casting Daze while attacking.

This worked out not so well: I failed 4 defensive casting checks in a row (with a +6 bonus against DC 15) and did not manage to hit an enemy with my rapier (+3 bonus normal; +4 when magicked up; +2 when "dual-wielding") before they were defeated. The more focused fighters mowed down the enemies (and took quite a bit of damage in the process), requiring several emergency healing potions to be consumed.

Later, in the combat, I got close enough to the archer to hit him with a Daze (we wanted to capture him), and he easily saved (half-elf + high roll). The next round, I failed a tumble check, but the provoked AoO missed thanks to the Shield spell, and I moved into flanking position on him. Unfortunately, the archer decided to run towards the exit on his turn - and he easily tumbled away from me and the other two characters in melee with him (DM had some seriously good rolls that night), so no free attack for me. Luckily for us, the archer nailed him to the floor with his next attack*, which also killed him instantly. Ah, well - no interogation phase is certainly simpler! K (Arcana) gave me some insights into the half-elf's journal, which underscored the true threat now facing Sandpoint.

We investigated the remainder of the glassworks, and found the innkeeper (saved her) and the underground passageways, which we started to explore. Here, my K (Dungeoneering) came in use, giving us some helpful clues as to the nature of the tunnels and their construction.

The session ended when, after moving through the cramped tunnels, we came to a broader area, and we decided to call it a night before the next encounter.

Thoughts:

At low-levels, the -2 on attack rolls when "dual-wielding" is tough, especially when, in exchange, you don't even get to do anything else (because you also failed the Concentration check). Against the low-level enemies, I should probably trust to my AC (21 most of the time) more and let them take a swing (DC 15 Con check vs. 10+Damage), but my then-5HP-total argued against that (6 damage the previous day, 2 points of healing overnight in the inn). I thought about using the attack-penalty-to-concentration-bonus part of the Spell Combat rules, but my melee attack rolls were already pretty dismal, and I didn't want to hurt them further. In retrospect, since I never hit anyway, the additional penalty wouldn't have cost me anything, and might have let me get a spell or two off.

At this level, Defensively Casting a 1st-level spell is a bad idea.

At the end of the session, we advanced to 2nd-level, and I picked up an additional 0th-level and 1st-level spell, more HP, +1 BAB, and, most importantly, Spellstrike. I also lowered the required roll to cast a cantrip successfully from 9 to 8 thanks to the caster-level increase, and added Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch to my repertoire. I'm looking forward to 3rd-level, and the Close Range Arcana, which will give me an additional 1d3 damage on most rounds where I single attack (via channeling a Ray of Cold or an Acid Splash).

I continue to feel like the character plays as a somewhat sub-spec Fighter at these early levels (lacking attack bonus, HP, and interesting feats), and the "defining ability" - Spell Combat - carries a pretty hefty penalty that makes attacking pretty unlikely to succeed. Investing in the Combat Casting feat should at least make the spell-side more likely to work, but that has the side effect of pushing back more interesting feats, instead selecting one that allows the character's main schtick (e.g., casting spells while in melee range while attacking) to actually work reliably; it feels less like a choice and more like a patch. I've reviewed the Paizo boards' pretty extensively, and nearly every Magus build I've seen has taken the Focused Mind trait, the Combat Casting feat, or both; I think there's a really solid reason for this!

Part of the problems I've brough on myself, by electing to go with a Dex-heavy build - and PF has an even higher feat tax on those wanting to go with a Dex-based melee build than 3.5, since Weapon Finesse does not address your CMB (a hole I'm not particularly happy with), and the only way to get Dex to damage is a non-core feat specifically tied to the scimitar (which puts you yet another feat behind the straight Str guy - who could, if he wanted, spend those on a Skill Focus or two in the appropriate Dex-based skills and still be, largely, better off). I could, instead, drop my Dex score and invest in Str, but given that I'll be limited in my armor selection for quite a long time (I'm already wearing the best I can!), that seems an easy way to end up more dead.

I agree that, if you want to run something non-standard, you should pay for it; I just think that the cost here is set a bit too high. That's all really sidebar, however, and has been one of my sore spots with 3.X for awhile.

Anyway, I'm still having fun with the class, and look forward to exploiting my most recent "key ability." With Elven Magic, I'm an absolute rockstar at identifying magical items, auto-ID'ing anything with a CL of 5 or less (which will cover just about everything we come across for awhile; and if I can't ID it, then it's a useful red flag!). The first game, I felt like a decent helper in combat; this time, not so much (my flanking bonus helped some other people out, though); hopefully, next time will be more like the first time!

* I really like the critical hits deck. I hope to, I dunno, actually draw a card from it, someday. That 18-20 crit range on my rapier is there for a reason!