Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

Mustrum_Ridcully said:

There are still spells, that have been around since the beginning. And are daily. And the thing I addressed had nothing to do with martial daily powers, but with daily powers in general.

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My issue isn't so much with spell dailys (although sleep seemed so lame in play I have trouble seeing why it couldn't be an encounter power). My issue is why something akin to whirlwind attack should be limited to 1/day.

Shadeydm said:

My issue isn't so much with spell dailys (although sleep seemed so lame in play I have trouble seeing why it couldn't be an encounter power). My issue is why something akin to whirlwind attack should be limited to 1/day.

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Rules-wise, because the daily powers are powerful - they are powerful enough that the DM and the other players doesn't want to see them every combat. If this isn't acceptable from a stricly mechanical point of view, this isn't going to work for you. 4E has accepted there will be things every class can do only sometimes game balance reasons. We could do this by recharge or miss chance (monsters do this by recharge), we could do it by tokens (Iron Heroes - written by Mike Mearls, among others). There are problems with both; recharge/miss chance means that some fights you would want to use the power in you just can't. I've been in a situation in another game where my character died because I couldn't roll over a 15 on percentile dice across 5 rounds of combat to hit a caster and end a spell. That wasn't a lot of fun. A recharge roll means potentially you could use the power too often. Tokens means book-keeping, and means that in some circumstances you could charge up your power and have no eligible or appropriate targets for it (a charge I've heard leveled at IH, and seen in other systems with a charge-up mechanic).

As for description, I've gone through the fighter powers and skimmed the ranger, rogue, and warlord powers and I can't find very many examples of use-limited powers that can't be explained as "I'm trying but it's not having an effect right now". You knocked him prone, but he got back up before you could follow up. The effect happened, but not in such a way that can be represented inside the turn/grid structure (you didn't push him the full five feet, the ally you granted extra movement to was slow enough off the mark that his turn came up first, etc).

There's always going to be some metagame knowledge where the player knows more in combat than his player. the limits on AED powers is one of them. So's the table talk, hitpoint status of all your allies, exact locaiton of all your allies, etc. This is just another example of that.

In short, given that some powers for each class need to be limited by the AED structure so that all classes are equally powerful across all levels (a core design goal of 4E, let me remind you), and the limitations of other mechanisms for limiting the use of Encounter and Daily powers, the AED structure is the better alternative. Once we have this, explain it away however you like - the easiest IMHO and the one that works with almost all the pwoers I've looked at is to add "and it has a noticeable secondary in-game effect" to the description of the martial powers.

Shadeydm said:

My issue isn't so much with spell dailys (although sleep seemed so lame in play I have trouble seeing why it couldn't be an encounter power). My issue is why something akin to whirlwind attack should be limited to 1/day.

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The context I was posting in did not address the importance or validity of martial dailies in specific, but the general importance of dailies. It wasn't supposed to address the in-game logic or anything like that.
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The easiest "cop-out" is to say: Martial powers are magic. It's "Martial Power" not "Mundane abilities". All those awesome stunts real people do, they are still mundane and are what you do when you're using basic and at-will attacks. The rest is "sword magic". It's not "flashy" with dazzling light displays, but it's still magic.

The a little less easy route is to say (because it might seem contrived): Martial Powers strain your body. To execute a specific maneuver/power, you use a combination of muscles, adrenaline, nerves and brain cell clusters that you will not be able to activate this way again unless you rest for a few hours. The neurons won't fire again with the necessary speed and sequence, the muscles are too fatigued, and you don't have the adrenaline to get the energy boost required.


The next way to go is using the narrative/gamist approach, assuming "fortune in the middle", and distinguishing between player and character choices. This seems to be the hardest for most, since it changes core assumptions on how to interpret game mechanics in the context of the game-world. Some people are not accustomed or do not want to change between a narrating player and the player characters point of view, or rather want them to be identical.


The final method might be to use the hong-way - stop thinking to hard about fantasy. While simplistic looking, it seems to be even harder then anything else, because most role-players have learned that it's important to think critical - which is usually right, but when we're talking about having fun only, and thinking gets in the way instead of improving it, there is no harm in not thinking to hard about fantasy. (And very different from what happens with "not thinking to hard about politics" or "not thinking to hard about gender equalities" or just "not thinking too hard about math")

Ask yourself only: Does it provide cool scenes on the battlefield? Does it make combat interesting? Would it lead to imbalances restricting daily powers to spellcasters only, or having all dailies becoming encounter powers? In short, do the game mechanics provide ways for a fun play experience?

For those who dislike metagame-based Encounter and Daily powers, what are your thoughts on Token mechanics that achieve similar results?

-O

Obryn said:

For those who dislike metagame-based Encounter and Daily powers, what are your thoughts on Token mechanics that achieve similar results?

-O

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At a much higher cost in book-keeping, particularly between sessions...

Obryn said:

For those who dislike metagame-based Encounter and Daily powers, what are your thoughts on Token mechanics that achieve similar results?

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I haven't played a game that uses token mechanics, but, if the tokens don't represent something in game, they're just another meta-game mechanic.

And it sounds like they add bookkeeping.

mmadsen said:

I haven't played a game that uses token mechanics, but, if the tokens don't represent something in game, they're just another meta-game mechanic.

And it sounds like they add bookkeeping.

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They were big with some classes in Iron Heroes - which is the first place I saw them. Basically, you build up tokens by doing class-appropriate stuff, and when you have enough you can spend them to use more powerful abilities.

It's pretty intense bookkeeping, but IH was pretty clearly marketed for advanced players. Also, it provided "Villain Classes" so GMs wouldn't need to track them for the bad guys.

I have heard that some classes in Pathfinder are - in the newer revisions - moving to Token mechanics, but at this point I can't tell you how it's being used. (Or even if - I mean, web boards are hardly the most reliable of sources, and I can't access Paizo from work.) It'll be interesting, though, if this conversation shifts from "Metagame mechanics are always broken!" to "My metagame mechanic can beat up your metagame mechanic."

-O

Obryn said:

For those who dislike metagame-based Encounter and Daily powers, what are your thoughts on Token mechanics that achieve similar results?

-O

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For me they were generally more resource management tracking than I wanted to deal with as a player or DM.

Many seemed OK, tieing dodging and dodging and dodging into a positional based payoff advantage seems thematically appropriate, for instance.

Token mechanics can simulate well the delayed aspects of sizing up your opponents or getting into your groove as you fight.

The cost is resource tracking and the style is suited more for those who enjoy mechanical fiddling, (evaluating when do you spend your tokens).

Wyrmshadows said:

Allow me to vent this and then share your opinion if you wish.

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I dislike 1/day mechanics period.

I live with vancian spells and spell point psionics but I prefer recharge magic from UA. Vancian spells I can articulate in character so it makes sense as preparation of spells is the way magic is in standard D&D worlds and the arbitrary nature of magic being as it is works sufficiently for me to immerse myself into the D&D worlds and characters.

I live with 3e barbarian rage and monk stunning fist but don't like them, either mechanically or from a roleplay perspective. My preferred choice for a barbarian is to take the extra rage feat and hope I don't have to worry about saving up rage for the day's last big fight. I avoid talking about the daily limits in character.

I live with paladin and celestial/fiendish smites but change them when I DM so they provide constant lower bonuses. I've been tempted by the UA recharge magic model and now 4e's encounter powers to make all daily powers into recharge/encounter powers. I have no problem saying the god smack power works X number of times per day in character because again it is the arbitrary nature of magic in the D&D world the characters live in, although thematically I prefer a different cosmological power setup.

The 1/day martials as PC narrative control for circumstances being just right does not appeal to me. It being supernatural ki powers similar to a paladin smite is distasteful but works from an IC RP perspective for me. Just biting my tongue and not bringing them up IC similar to barbarian rage would probably be my way of dealing with them.

The more martial 1/day effects are at will ones but more powerful (striking really hard for more damage or bonus to hit, etc.) instead of doing new capabilities the less problems I would run into from the IC suspension of disbelief aspect.

I would still prefer to have always on but depend on the situation style powers or an upgrade to the encounter or at will abilities for playstyle preference instead of daily powers though.

every edition of everything has at least one stupid rule

so if you don't like it, why don't you just houserule it?

WotC has noticed by now that many people feel strongly that daily powers are a problem. Maybe they'll fix it in the errata, maybe they won't; maybe they'll fix it in the next edition, maybe they won't.

Meanwhile, here's my suggestion for a houserule for those of us who can't stand it:

Any class can use their daily powers as often as they want. BUT, you only get one free use. All subsequent uses have a cost. The penalty for the second use of a daily is a -1 to your primary stat (i.e., DEX for rogues, INT for wizards, etc) and a -1 to all saves, until your daily would normally refresh. The penalties stack, so the third time you use a daily, you're taking a -2 to everything.

Sound fair? The rationale behind this is roughly the same as given in the books, that the daily is a strain on the character.

Wizard Bob's natural magical aptitude allows him to inflict one terrifying destructive spell a day; then he can't do it again until his magic refreshes at sunrise. But if he's willing to pay the price in mental cloudiness and bone-deep, stumbling exhaustion, he can sacrifice some of his life energy to pull it off again.

Similarly, Fighter Jim is strong enough to cleave through flesh and bone and lay waste to his enemies, but after he does this he's tired, so he's not going to be quick and strong enough to do it again until he's had a meal and a nap. If he really needs to, though, he can do it again, just like the wizard, and he must pay a similar price: afterward he's weary and in pain.

Bunnicula said:

so if you don't like it, why don't you just houserule it?

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"Just" house-ruling something isn't always easy. Or, rather, it's easy to house-rule something, but house rules often have unintended consequences.

Bunnicula said:

Any class can use their daily powers as often as they want. BUT, you only get one free use. All subsequent uses have a cost. The penalty for the second use of a daily is a -1 to your primary stat (i.e., DEX for rogues, INT for wizards, etc) and a -1 to all saves, until your daily would normally refresh. The penalties stack, so the third time you use a daily, you're taking a -2 to everything.

Sound fair? The rationale behind this is roughly the same as given in the books, that the daily is a strain on the character.

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That is strictly more powerful than the current rules. If a daily power is going to be usable more than once per day, then even the first use will probably need a cost.

Also, the rationale for a magical power should likely be very different than for a martial exploit, which is ostensibly limited by timing and opportunity.