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Epic Fight turns into Epic Farce

Hussar

Legend
I would argue that protection from evil does not work against a harpy (though that is secondary to the discussion at hand). The spell you have in mind is probably silence, since the harpy song is a sonic effect.

Won't it boil down to the same thing? Cleric casts silence (or casts it from a scroll), entire party squeezes inside, then find a way to slay the harpy, chase it away or bypass it. At the end of the day, it is still resources expended, just that the majority is spent on defensive buffs allowing you to resist the harpy's song, rather than actually defeating them (because note that the harpies can still fly, and possibly wield ranged weaponry). Even if you had cast invisibility on everyone to sneak past them, it would still be resources expended.

After all, the game just assumes you spend ~25% of your resources on a equal EL encounter, it does not come out and say how those resources must be allocated, or expended in what manner. If you face a pit fiend, for instance, 20% of your resources could be spent on buffs (eg: heroes' feast, mindblank, energy resistance, scrolls of dismissal etc), and the remainder taking the form of actual damage taken during the fight. That the battle ended up being easier compared to if you had not pre-buffed still would not change the fact that either way, party resources still were used up.
/snip

Sort of. Casting a single second level spell is hardly using 20-25% of my resources is it? Not when that single spell completely negates the encounter IMO. A 6th level cleric with a light crossbow can still likely kill 2 harpies by herself. Look at the stats of a harpy.

But, that's the problem. One spell and the encounter goes from incredibly lethal to meh. What happens if you don't have the right spell on hand? Then you all die. Or, half of you fail your saves in the first round, the other half run away and half the party dies.

Personally I think it all boils down to a style thing... though I do think that those who claim save or die isn't fun actually mean... isn't fun for them. I think it really depends on what type of person you are whether you like or dislike save or die... I think of it like this.

Is it really even a play style thing though? Is it good game design to have encounters that are 100% lethal even though the creature encountered should not be too difficult to fight? It's one thing to waltz your 3rd level bard up and swing at the dragon with a short stick. That's just begging for death. It's another to go into an encounter with the full expectation that it should be a doable encounter and losing all or some of the party through no fault of your own.

See, Imaro, the problem is, players don't generally get to choose what monsters they fight. The gambler can choose his bet, he knows his odds beforehand. He has perfect knowledge of what is in front of him. Players are often working in the dark, have little knowledge of the specific threats they may face and have massive numbers of possiblities to prepare for.
 

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Imaro

Legend
Is it really even a play style thing though? Is it good game design to have encounters that are 100% lethal even though the creature encountered should not be too difficult to fight? It's one thing to waltz your 3rd level bard up and swing at the dragon with a short stick. That's just begging for death. It's another to go into an encounter with the full expectation that it should be a doable encounter and losing all or some of the party through no fault of your own.

See, Imaro, the problem is, players don't generally get to choose what monsters they fight. The gambler can choose his bet, he knows his odds beforehand. He has perfect knowledge of what is in front of him. Players are often working in the dark, have little knowledge of the specific threats they may face and have massive numbers of possiblities to prepare for.

I really think it is a playstyle thing, in fact very similar to the 1st level characters in 3.5 vs. 1st level characters in 4e. Some people enjoy the swingy nature of combat in low-level 3.5. They enjoy having the ability to kill an Orc with a single blow and get a rush that their character is in real danger every time the DM rolls the dice against them... some people don't and feel that type of swinginess holds no attraction for them. Personally I find that at times it can be fun to know that alot hinges on a particular roll, but I'm also ready and willing to accept the consequences if I fail.

No, players don't get to choose... but a good DM should know his players. I have a player who used to play Barbarians and Fighters exclusively in 3.5. He didn't care about power discrepancy, or numerous options...He played to do massive damage and kill things, and didn't want to be tied up in numerous decisions or tactical planning to do it.

When we started playing 4e, he showed up for a few sessions then basically dropped out. Watching him play in 4e I kinda expected this as he was a casual gamer, and as such didn't mind if his character died... and loved taking the big risks to get big payoffs... 4e just doesn't work like that. Adding to his irritation was that now as a fighter in 4e he had to choose each round between 4 to 5 powers, remember to mark, couldn't take a Kobold (non-minion) down in one blow, etc. He enjoyed the risk factors and suddenly they were all gone and complexity had jumped quite a few levels. His playstyle just doesn't sink up to what he wanted (or was use to) with D&D. He's not right or wrong, but I see where he's coming from.
 

The thing is 4e has decided that shooting craps is the wrong type of fun for D&D
Just as previous editions had decided that playing cards was the wrong type of fun. It may be a style thing as you say, but for the core rules a decision had to be made.

(I often wonder if this could be the bland feeling that has been expressed by some people trying the game. There's very little adrenaline rush moments in the game now.)
There's a difference between an adrenaline rush brought on by excitement, and one brought on by dread. The save-or-die roll is different than a craps roll - there is nothing to be gained, only something to be lost. That's an important difference.

I think a better solution would have been to have save or die as optional rules with guidelines on the effect and proper use in a game.
Why would The Complete Book of Dice Games include rules for card games? Anyway, this posited solution, if used for every playstyle issue, would result in a PHB twice its actual size.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Just as previous editions had decided that playing cards was the wrong type of fun. It may be a style thing as you say, but for the core rules a decision had to be made.

Yeah, and as I said earlier I don't think it can quantifiably be called a decision for "fun" in a general sense. It was a choice that wasn't objectively "better" except where peoples preferred playstyle matched the decision.

There's a difference between an adrenaline rush brought on by excitement, and one brought on by dread. The save-or-die roll is different than a craps roll - there is nothing to be gained, only something to be lost. That's an important difference.

Uhm...wrong. People go to horror movies, haunted houses, ride roller coasters, etc. for this type of adrenaline rush all the time (especially, like a rpg, these are reasonably safe circumstances to experience them in.). If they didn't like it then why subject themselves to it?

Why would The Complete Book of Dice Games include rules for card games? Anyway, this posited solution, if used for every playstyle issue, would result in a PHB twice its actual size.

Yeah, the only problem with this logic is that it's actually the 4th ed. of what has up till now been the "Complete Book of Dice Games"...only it has rules for card games in it with this recent edition.

No, not for every playstyle issue, but I do think that it could have been a smart thing to do when blatantly changing the playstyle assumptions from the previous edition(s).
 

Runestar

First Post
But, that's the problem. One spell and the encounter goes from incredibly lethal to meh. What happens if you don't have the right spell on hand? Then you all die. Or, half of you fail your saves in the first round, the other half run away and half the party dies.

Shouldn't the DM play a part in this by tailoring encounters to suit your party? I mean - look at the allip, for example. A cr3 incorporeal undead, so the average party encountering one likely won't have a magic weapon just yet. But there are other ways of overcoming it (magic missle, magic weapon/fang, just running away). The key here is that the party should be able to somehow find a means of defeating it, and that said attempt is expected to drain so much resources on average. Sometimes more, other times less, but it would all even out in the long run.

How often is it that your party ends up with entirely the wrong arsenal for whatever situation gets thrown their way? You mean there was absolutely nothing your party could have done to fight the harpies in any effective manner? Heck, I think it might be possible to stuff your ears to deafen yourself, though its effectiveness may depend on how the DM opts to adjudicate it (and of course, the resulting deafness may have consequences of its own - you find some way of implementing it).

Then in this case, maybe the DM should not have designed such an encounter.
 


Hussar

Legend
Shouldn't the DM play a part in this by tailoring encounters to suit your party? I mean - look at the allip, for example. A cr3 incorporeal undead, so the average party encountering one likely won't have a magic weapon just yet. But there are other ways of overcoming it (magic missle, magic weapon/fang, just running away). The key here is that the party should be able to somehow find a means of defeating it, and that said attempt is expected to drain so much resources on average. Sometimes more, other times less, but it would all even out in the long run.

How often is it that your party ends up with entirely the wrong arsenal for whatever situation gets thrown their way? You mean there was absolutely nothing your party could have done to fight the harpies in any effective manner? Heck, I think it might be possible to stuff your ears to deafen yourself, though its effectiveness may depend on how the DM opts to adjudicate it (and of course, the resulting deafness may have consequences of its own - you find some way of implementing it).

Then in this case, maybe the DM should not have designed such an encounter.

This strays dangerously into the idea that a good DM can fix anything. There are no rules for deafening yourself. How long does it take to stuff wax in your ears? Is that 100% effective or does it give save bonuses? How many PC's carry candles... on and on.

My problem is that creatures with Save or Die or Save or Suck completely break the whole design philosophy of 3e. A creature of equivalent CR should not be able to kill multiple PC's in a single round. It simply shouldn't. The entire CR system is based around the idea that a given creature of a given CR will be a "standard" challenge for an equal level party.

SoD or SoS creatures do an end run around this and create havoc in the back field. I shouldn't have to completely tailor a standard encounter to make it non-lethal. I don't have to do that for any other standard CR 4 creature. I don't have to tailor an encounter with a troll (CR 5) to make an encounter where I won't have a very high chance of killing my entire party.

That's the beef I have with SoD.

Imaro, out of curiousity, what levels did you usually play?
 

Imaro

Legend
Imaro, out of curiousity, what levels did you usually play?

Mostly low to mid level play...you are talking about 3.5, right? I've never found enough interest to push past a mid-level game of D&D as at high levels it bogs down and I have a range of games my group enjoys playing more than high level D&D.
 

Runestar

First Post
A creature of equivalent CR should not be able to kill multiple PC's in a single round. It simply shouldn't. The entire CR system is based around the idea that a given creature of a given CR will be a "standard" challenge for an equal level party.
I suspect the design philosophy is more of an average over multiple encounters, than what would actually happen in every fight.

For example, lets say we run run 10 separate fights, each involving a 8th lv party against a mindflayer. Some may experience bad luck by rolling badly on their will saves, with the entire party getting stunned/charmed (the equivalent of a TPK). Others may luck out on their rolls, and make all their saving throws, eventually killing the mindflayer without taking any damage. So you have widely varying results (and other factors can further swing this. For instance, magic circle prevents charm monster from working. Undead/construct PCs won't be affected etc). But if you average everything, the final result is roughly 25% resources expended per party, just that some end up losing more, others less.

The same rationale may apply here. The designers likely don't expect your party to actually deplete exactly 1/4 of their resources every fight. But in the long run, the amount of resouces your party does end up using should be more or less consistent with said formula. If your wizard gets pertified by the medusa, the resources spent could be in the form of spending money to hire a wizard to cast stone to flesh or break enchantment (because its damage dealing capabilities is practically nil). Or the value of a raise dead/revivify scroll for the rogue who fails his fort save against the bodak.

Naturally, as is the problem with any one-sized-fits-all guideline, there are bound to be lots of outlier scenarios which slip through the cracks. The designers likely arrived at the values they did from playtesting under certain predetermined assumptions and conditions. Thus, how well or poorly your party fares would also depend on how closely or greatly they deviated from those underlying set of assumptions. Considering all the possible options in building your party, some form of deviation should be expected.

You do have a point though in that in a worst case scenario, a round of bad rolls could mean certain death for the whole party (say everyone rolls a natural 1 on their fort save against the medusa's gaze). All I can say is that I am lucky in that this has never occured in my games.:p
 

pemerton

Legend
I would argue that protection from evil does not work against a harpy (though that is secondary to the discussion at hand). The spell you have in mind is probably silence, since the harpy song is a sonic effect.

Won't it boil down to the same thing? Cleric casts silence (or casts it from a scroll), entire party squeezes inside, then find a way to slay the harpy, chase it away or bypass it. At the end of the day, it is still resources expended, just that the majority is spent on defensive buffs allowing you to resist the harpy's song, rather than actually defeating them (because note that the harpies can still fly, and possibly wield ranged weaponry). Even if you had cast invisibility on everyone to sneak past them, it would still be resources expended.
So does the encounter go from being too threatening to a tedious exercise in dice-rolling? Or can it still be kept interesting?

Yesterday I GMed a high-level assault upon a meteor that had broken away from the prison plane entrapping Tharizdun and landed in the bottom of the ocean. Tharizdun was still trapped inside (and thus at half strength) but was building up an army in the surrounding waters. (The adventure is in RM, not D&D, and mixes bits and pieces of Beyond Countless Doorways, When the Sky Falls and the online WoTC Elder Evil adventure converted to RM with RM stats for dark gods and prison planes from ICE's C&T II and The Curse of Kabis.)

Most of the execution of the encounter was in the planning, which involved the party going in under extended Time Stop, bringing Tharizdun into their timezone and knocking him unconcsious before he could act, then using Force Shape Change to turn him from Voidal Energy form to human form so that he could be carried unconscious back to the dead star where he had been imprisoned, ready for that star to be reignited.

As it happened, once the party had prepared its assault, the encounter posed comparatively little challenge, though there were a few minor hiccups both going in and getting out. But the party was never quite sure that it would work - in particular, it was always possible that Tharizdun had already graduated to full strength, and thus would be much harder to knock unconscious in a single surprise round than anticipated. Thus, the encounter was not boring. In fact, it is one aspect of the climax of a 10-year campaign.

But if every encounter is to involve this degree of planning and suspense in order to make the use of preparatory, buffing and protective magic not just seem like a tedious fun-killer, then I don't want to have to GM 10 encounters per level. One like that is enough for me, in terms of the time it takes for me to plan it, and for the players to play it out (including the planning stages, which for my group - who can be slightly excessive about these things - itself took multiple sessions, including finding suitable NPCs to help them buff for the mission).

Because D&D presupposes a large number of encounters per level, it is incumbent upon the game to make it easy for a GM to keep them interesting, rather than being either cakewalks or TPKs, without each encounter requiring an inordinate investment of player or GM time.

For me, the decision as to whether or not I need to take Silence in order to save the party from a random encounter with Harpies falls on the tedious side of the line, not the suspense-building side. Others' mileage may vary.

rolling a natural 1 on your save is a metagame concept. In-game, your character won't know that he will fail a particular save only on a natural 1. When he does fail his will save against said spell, his reaction should be more along the lines of "darn, I let down my guard for just 1 moment, and this happens" or "I just wasn't strong enough", rather than "crap, I must have rolled a 1. Just my luck".

He wouldn't know why he failed the save, just that he did, and this would influence his future responses accordingly
So you're saying that the character should think "I need to do exercises to strengthen my self-discipline", which mechanically are reflected by taking the Iron Will feat? Is the player, who takes the view that a Cleric with a high will save has nothing to gain from Iron Will (because that won't stop any 1s from being rolled) and so chooses to take a different feat next level, an evil metagamer?

Personally, I prefer a system in which an autofail is not a metagame concept (eg fumbles in many systems, or narrating a natural 1 on a D&D attack as "No matter how well you manoeuvre, you just can't find an opening in your foes defence." This doesn't then create a dissonance between game and metagame which gets in the way of rational character building.
 

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