Sept 2nd News - I wont be doing Scales of War

Dausuul said:

And it is arrogant to say:

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Okay, so any writer or person associated with a project saying "Hey, we've got a plan, even if you can't see it yetl" is just being arrogant.

These are subjective judgements he's making on our behalf. Who is he to tell us whether we'll find his archvillain compelling, or his structure logically complete, or his plot hook "real?"

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Now you're just actively trying to take offense from his words. Of course it's all his opinion, just like Ari saying the Advanced Player's Guide is good is his opinion. That doesn't mean that Ari is being presumptive and arrogant by stating such, merely that it's his opinion that the product is good, and only someone actively looking to get upset over nothing would claim that such a statement is someone trying to force their opinion on others.

I mean, should we all call Paizo arrogant for saying that Pathfinder is a great product? Or how about saying White Wolf is trying to force their opinion on us because they think that the Exalted setting is well-written and cohesive, with compelling villains and plot hooks?

Christ, it's getting to the point where noone from WotC can say anything positive about anything that comes out of WotC, because it's suddenly arrogant or insulting or forcing their opinion on somebody.

The Little Raven said:

Now you're just actively trying to take offense from his words. Of course it's all his opinion, just like Ari saying the Advanced Player's Guide is good is his opinion. That doesn't mean that Ari is being presumptive and arrogant by stating such, merely that it's his opinion that the product is good, and only someone actively looking to get upset over nothing would claim that such a statement is someone trying to force their opinion on others.

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It's not arrogant to say his project is good. It is arrogant to say that simply because he thinks it's good, we should just "wait and see" - and, of course, spend the next several months playing through the first adventures of the AP, waiting for the Big Reveal when we find out if his team is actually going to deliver on their promises.

If Ari tells me I should buy his Advanced Player's Guide because it's the best thing ever, my reaction is going to be, "Well, what's in it?" If his response is, "Well, I can't give you all the specifics, but here's a general overview," that's perfectly reasonable; he's piquing my interest by saying it's the best thing ever, then giving me the information I need to decide whether I agree with him (or at least, whether I think there's a reasonable chance of it; I still have to guess whether his execution will live up to his ambition, but I can look at his other work to get an idea of that).

But if his response is, "Just wait and see," that's arrogant, because now he's acting as if I should accept his opinion without question.

The Little Raven said:

If you knew Vader was Luke's father before watching that scene in Empire, then it wouldn't have the same impact.

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This is missing the point. If you are watching the movie, yes it will make a difference. However the DM isnt a "viewer" in this case, they would be the director. Randy is telling the directors they dont need to see the script of the movie, because it would ruin the surprise. You just go ahead and direct and when the next section of the script is ready you can use it. The AP synopsis is for the DMs, not the players.

Also, about the Paizo point. No, you dont have to pay 20 dollars for the synopsis. You can goto your FLGS, pick up the print module that has the synopis for the AP and give it a quick glance, then decide if you like it. Now if your local FLGS doesnt carry paizo producs, then yes it can be an issue. However, the point still remains that they are at least OFFERING a synopsis to the DMs. WoTC wont even tell us where this AP is going, and they just expect us to doll out the cash for the magazines every month because "Trust us! Its great! We dont want to spoil it!"

If you want a free overview for the forthcoming Paizo Adventure Paths, you can also look here. It's not as good as the ones you pay for, but still, better then the complete lack of offering given by WoTC.

Now, if Paizo products are too expensive for you, I'd suggest taking out a subscription. You get a whole 30% off, which is great.

Reaper Steve said:

Here's my guess on what they don't want to spoil:
With 16 more months to go, I expect that the later parts of SoW will include monsters from MM2 (and maybe 3), as well as things from other books yet to be published or even announced.

If they say, the BBEG of SoW is _____________, a 33rd level primordial (see Manual of the Planes) that rides an acient wyrm brown dragon (see Draconomicon I) and is surrounded by hordes of ___________ (see MM2)...., well, not only does that spoil the adventure path, but it also spoils parts of those products.

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Personally, I think you might be on the right track (although nobody outside of WoTC, the Dungeon magazine staff, or anyone with the name Randy Buehler can really know for sure). Some people jumped on this as being silly about needing to know exact stats and such, but I understand the concept you were getting at. WoTC may be afraid of releasing spoilers of, not just the Adventure Path, but their future products.

But it seems to me, with the talent they are supposed to have, and the foreknowledge of what products they are developing, they should be able to give us a minimal overview without violating the secrecy of in-development products.

I'm not saying that our group here at ENWorld necessarily drives WoTC sales, but I seem to be seeing enough negative feedback from prospective DM's of this path here on ENWorld, on other boards, and from the emails myself and others have sent WoTC, that should have WoTC saying "Maybe we should be listening to this" insted of just saying "Trust Us".

Wonka said:

This is missing the point. If you are watching the movie, yes it will make a difference. However the DM isnt a "viewer" in this case, they would be the director. Randy is telling the directors they dont need to see the script of the movie, because it would ruin the surprise. You just go ahead and direct and when the next section of the script is ready you can use it. The AP synopsis is for the DMs, not the players.

Also, about the Paizo point. No, you dont have to pay 20 dollars for the synopsis. You can goto your FLGS, pick up the print module that has the synopis for the AP and give it a quick glance, then decide if you like it. Now if your local FLGS doesnt carry paizo producs, then yes it can be an issue. However, the point still remains that they are at least OFFERING a synopsis to the DMs. WoTC wont even tell us where this AP is going, and they just expect us to doll out the cash for the magazines every month because "Trust us! Its great! We dont want to spoil it!"

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There also exists the option of asking someone who does own the module to summarize it for you.

Personally, I'm not going to be using the path because there was no attempt to fix any of the glaring errors in Rescue at Rivenroar when it was compiled into the whole issue. It doesn't matter how great the story is if the quality control sucks.

Reaper Steve said:

If they say, the BBEG of SoW is _____________, a 33rd level primordial (see Manual of the Planes) that rides an acient wyrm brown dragon (see Draconomicon I) and is surrounded by hordes of ___________ (see MM2)...., well, not only does that spoil the adventure path, but it also spoils parts of those products.

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Nothing of this is what I would want to see in an overview. Neither would you see anything like this in an adventure synopsis. If that is really (part of) the reason why they don't want to give us an outline, they are even more clueless than I would have thought possible.

Fenes said:

You don't get it. Time to add another name to my ignore list.

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Might as well add me too, because I don't get it either.

WOTC can never win apparently.

After working on, writing for, editing, developing, and connecting Adventure Paths for pretty much the last five years or so, I suspect that I'm one of the ones who knows the most about what works and what doesn't work for Adventure Paths. They're really, REALLY complicated to create, and even now, going into the seventh one I've helped create, I'm still learning how to do it.

But one of the first things I learned was how important those campaign summaries are.

They're vital. They not only let the GM feel like he or she is an organic and valuable part of the thing (which they are!), but they also serve the same role that a movie trailer does; they get folk excited about the coming campaign. If they don't get folk excited and drive them off... that's a failure of the Adventure Path itself, NOT a failure of the campaign overview.

As for how to get them out there for GMs to check out... that's a little more complicated. Do you put them in the first volume of the AP? Do you preview them in the volume just before? Do you put them online? Do you do all three? Will readers get angry that you're "robbing potential content" from a volume because 2 or 4 pages are "wasted?" All important questions.

This thread's actually VERY educational to me, and the main thing I'm taking away from it is confirmation that AP outlines are indispensable to an Adventure Path, and that the best place to print them is alongside the first installment of the first adventure. We did this with "Rise of the Runelords," but in a weird format. With "Second Darkness," I think we've finally hit on the best way to do them; a two-page outline that appears at the back of the product alongside the first adventure. I suspect it's probably also not a bad idea to throw the thing up online somewhere too, so that prospective GMs can check out the upcoming AP without having to shell out 20 bucks or whatever for the outline. That said, chat rooms and mesageboards and blogs and product briefs are also all great ways to get the information out there—we use all four of them for Pathfinder, and despite the fact that we've revealed major spoilers in so doing, sales of Adventure Path products have only increased.

Don't keep secrets from the GM is the moral of the story, I guess!

James Jacobs said:

. . . Don't keep secrets from the GM is the moral of the story, I guess!

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From your lips (or fingers) to WoTC's ears (I hope).