Fixing Multiclassing v0.2 (Input and opinions much appreciated)
- Thread starter Sphyre
- Start date
Nifft
Penguin Herder
In your opinion - not a fact.
Note that this is a penalty for the Str 16 Hammer Dwarf more than it is for the Str 20 Longsword Dragonborn (who is also a Ranger with Twin Strike). I abuse the latter in a CharOpt build via Warpriest.
Hmm. Mucks up Charging, but otherwise not much impact.
Wow, big changes. Dunno how I feel about these, as they affect the rest of the party much more than the Warlord.
Hmm. Multi-classing Strikers (Ranger/Warlock) gets you +2d4 damage rather than +1d6 damage.
Problem with the wording of the Bonus: the feat which increases your die size to d8s doesn't say "increase your die size by one"; it just replaces your current dice with d8s.
Sadly, this doesn't really nerf the hardcore optimized Orb Wizard, but it does nerf the Staff and Wand guys.
Cheers, -- N
Overall this is the best step in the direction I'd like to see the concept go in. I'd go for more of a gestalt than "multiclass" feel. Here are some quick thoughts. Maybe this should be made into a separate "Gestalt" option?
Here is an example: Rogue training in Fighter
MUTLICLASS RULES ADDITION (done for each class)
Rogue: When a rogue takes a multiclass feat, they lose the "Rogue Weapon Talent" class feature. You additionally decrease your Reflex Defense bonus to +1.
New Multiclass Feat: These are designed to make the multiclass more attractive and to actually perform in a similar way that the class is meant to. Thus someone multiclassing into Fighter does so to become more capable at defending.
FIGHTER TRAINING
You have trained in the basics of the fighter's craft at the expense of some of your primary class's abilities.
Prerequisites: Str 13
Benefit:
* You gain training in one skill from the fighter’s class skill list.
* You gain 2 additional hit points and 1 additional healing surge.
* You gain a +1 class bonus to your Fortitude Defense.
* You may swap one 1st-level At-Will attack power of your primary class with one from the Fighter class.
* You gain the Fighter's Challenge class feature.
Fighter Challenge: Every time you attack an enemy and the attack hits, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
Design Note: This is a reduced version of the fighter's COMBAT CHALLENGE, but at the same time offers a fully useful marking power for the multiclassed/gestalted fighter, without gimping it to a once per encounter effect (which I humbly think is worthless).
Power Swap Feats would remain the same. I do like the fact that you can or can choose not, to swap powers from individual levels. However, I would take the "Paragon Multiclassing" and turn it into Paragon Tier feats just like the initial power swap feats at heroic level.
Example:
12th level feat - You can swap one encounter attack power of 7th level or lower you know for one encounter attack power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
14th level feat - You can swap one utility power of 10th level or lower you know for one utility power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
20th level feat - You can swap one daily attack power of 20th level or lower you know for one daily attack power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
Thoughts?
Here is an example: Rogue training in Fighter
MUTLICLASS RULES ADDITION (done for each class)
Rogue: When a rogue takes a multiclass feat, they lose the "Rogue Weapon Talent" class feature. You additionally decrease your Reflex Defense bonus to +1.
New Multiclass Feat: These are designed to make the multiclass more attractive and to actually perform in a similar way that the class is meant to. Thus someone multiclassing into Fighter does so to become more capable at defending.
FIGHTER TRAINING
You have trained in the basics of the fighter's craft at the expense of some of your primary class's abilities.
Prerequisites: Str 13
Benefit:
* You gain training in one skill from the fighter’s class skill list.
* You gain 2 additional hit points and 1 additional healing surge.
* You gain a +1 class bonus to your Fortitude Defense.
* You may swap one 1st-level At-Will attack power of your primary class with one from the Fighter class.
* You gain the Fighter's Challenge class feature.
Fighter Challenge: Every time you attack an enemy and the attack hits, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
Design Note: This is a reduced version of the fighter's COMBAT CHALLENGE, but at the same time offers a fully useful marking power for the multiclassed/gestalted fighter, without gimping it to a once per encounter effect (which I humbly think is worthless).
Power Swap Feats would remain the same. I do like the fact that you can or can choose not, to swap powers from individual levels. However, I would take the "Paragon Multiclassing" and turn it into Paragon Tier feats just like the initial power swap feats at heroic level.
Example:
12th level feat - You can swap one encounter attack power of 7th level or lower you know for one encounter attack power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
14th level feat - You can swap one utility power of 10th level or lower you know for one utility power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
20th level feat - You can swap one daily attack power of 20th level or lower you know for one daily attack power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
Thoughts?
Irda Ranger
First Post
Hmm. Looks like you've replaced characters that are good at one thing with characters that sucks at two things.
Just as examples:
Mind you, I realize that I'm not offering any help here. I don't know the answer (if there is one). Multi-classing in AD&D was too good, and in 3E was either necessary (for melee builds and PrCs) or stupid (different kinds of spellcasters). I've never seen anyone get it right.
My view at this time is that we should stop chasing this Questing Beast and stick with the known 4E solutions - classes like Swordmage and Paths & Destinies.
No one likes hearing that they can't have their cake and eat it too (I sure hate it), but I really think that's the answer. In a game with multiple players no one can be an Übermensch. Either everyone plays a single Core Class or everyone plays Gestalt.
Just as examples:
- If the Fighter can't mark he's not sticky, which totally negates his ability to be a Defender and keep baddies from beating up the magic-users. He's now neither a Defender nor anything else.
- Your Leader penalties screw the rest of the party, since healing is primarily for their benefit.
- Damage penalties make Strikers into Pin-prickers, which will lengthen combat, giving the baddies at least one more round to hit you for their unpenalized damage amounts.
Mind you, I realize that I'm not offering any help here. I don't know the answer (if there is one). Multi-classing in AD&D was too good, and in 3E was either necessary (for melee builds and PrCs) or stupid (different kinds of spellcasters). I've never seen anyone get it right.
My view at this time is that we should stop chasing this Questing Beast and stick with the known 4E solutions - classes like Swordmage and Paths & Destinies.
Sphyre said:
No one likes hearing that they can't have their cake and eat it too (I sure hate it), but I really think that's the answer. In a game with multiple players no one can be an Übermensch. Either everyone plays a single Core Class or everyone plays Gestalt.
Wow. I'm kinda glad someone else finally said this. My inclination since the start (and I was shot down for it multiple times) was to do away with the entire multiclass option and instead rely on the MMO-esque design philosophy of 4E and simply create a new class for each new "multiclass combo" people want to see. In an MMO you don't have a Fighter/Cleric mutliclass option, you instead get a "Hybrid" class. Swordmage and Paladin are perfect examples of this. WotC has even stated on numerous occasions that the PHB2 Druid is classified as a "Hybrid" class design (I still think its a Hybrid Leader/Striker). This is where my experiment with the Fencer class came from.Irda Ranger said:
However, on the flip side, I can see the appeal to some people who want to just "spice" their primary class with a flavoring of another class, rather than a full hybrid, which is where multiclassing comes in. IF we keep multiclassing, it should be made appealing and worthwhile.
An alternate idea -- to get away from the penalty thing, which I don't like -- is to offer each class a truly kickass Primary Advantage (just making this name up).
The idea is that the Primary Advantage is a super-feat that few will pass over. Most will take it. The drawback? You can only choose the Primary Advantage or the Multiclass Talent (which is itself a super-feat).
So, let's say, a pure fighter could chose the Primary Advantage of (and i did say this was a super-feat) an immediate +1 bonus with his chosen weapon AND +1 to AC.
A wizard might get +1 with a class of spells (fire, etc.) and +1 to saving throw target. (A wizard then can only specialize in a "School" if he's not multiclassing, which does make some sense.)
Almost all fighters (or wizards) will choose their classes' primary advantage... except those so tempted by a multiclass option they want that.
In effect, it builds in the penalty/bonus thing, except it's structured so that it's just choosing one bonus (being better at one single class) over another (grabbing the benefits of another class).
Because this Primary Advantage is so potent, it frees up the Mulitclass talent to deliver a bit more, and not very gimped abilties of the multiclass. For one thing, the multiclass Warlorck, for exampe, can grant the ability to curse, even if the curse grants no benefit (qualifying those who take it for paragon paths requiring this ability).
The idea is that the Primary Advantage is a super-feat that few will pass over. Most will take it. The drawback? You can only choose the Primary Advantage or the Multiclass Talent (which is itself a super-feat).
So, let's say, a pure fighter could chose the Primary Advantage of (and i did say this was a super-feat) an immediate +1 bonus with his chosen weapon AND +1 to AC.
A wizard might get +1 with a class of spells (fire, etc.) and +1 to saving throw target. (A wizard then can only specialize in a "School" if he's not multiclassing, which does make some sense.)
Almost all fighters (or wizards) will choose their classes' primary advantage... except those so tempted by a multiclass option they want that.
In effect, it builds in the penalty/bonus thing, except it's structured so that it's just choosing one bonus (being better at one single class) over another (grabbing the benefits of another class).
Because this Primary Advantage is so potent, it frees up the Mulitclass talent to deliver a bit more, and not very gimped abilties of the multiclass. For one thing, the multiclass Warlorck, for exampe, can grant the ability to curse, even if the curse grants no benefit (qualifying those who take it for paragon paths requiring this ability).
I agree this seems to be where 4e is going, and eventually after several splatbooks and lots of new classes we may get to the point where multiclassing works just as intended, the sprinkling of one class on top of another, where the true "multiclassing" is just taking a hybrid class like the swordmage.
Thing is, we aren't there yet, and likely won't be there for a few years or more. I'd rather have something my group likes now then wait a few years for WOTC to finish the job. Once the job is finished, houserules like these may no longer be necessary or even wanted, but until then we continue the quest!
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