Designing a 2e Retro-Clone

Here are my thoughts on how 2E could be better, if you're looking for suggestions. There's also a good discussion on Non-Weapon Proficiencies (primarily, their drawbacks) here.

1.) Would people be interested in a "faithful" conversion (keeping as much of 2e as possible) or would people be interesting in making a "perfect" edition that fixes and tweaks some poor elements of the game?

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Per Psion, a "Fixed" Edition. No wheel reinvention, but fix the worst stuff that everyone house rules anyway.

2.) The original 2e PHB had six races (human, elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling, half-elf) and nine classes (fighter, ranger, paladin, mage, illusionist, cleric, druid, thief, bard and rules for making specialist wizards and priests). Using the OGL though, you could re-create 2e monks, barbarians, assassins, half-orcs, tieflings, and much of the Complete Book of Humanoids. Would this be a worthwhile consideration; expanding the "core"?

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I'd keep it to the PHB for the first draft. Don't bite off more than you can chew. You can always release splats later.

3.) Later books (particularly Spells & Magic) re-organized spell schools, added bennies for specialist wizards, and generally fixed spellcasting classes a bit. Would these changes be welcomed, or would (again) a core-only approach be welcomed?

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To the extend they were intended to "fix" the core I would include them in the first release. Add-ons can wait.

4.) Kits; yes or no? Specifically, if there were kits, should they be build from the ground up or reproduced from original sources (more or less)?

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Yes, but see my first link above. There should be a strong concept as to what a Kit is, and how it effects the class it modifies. Unless the bounds of kits are clearly established ahead of time they can get out of hand. I think the best way to do that is to make them mandatory but have a strong default Kit for each class that serves as a template for future kits.

5.) Fixes to the Non-Weapon Proficiency system or left as is?

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Fix it or kill it. See the second link above for an in depth discussion.

6.) Upward or downward scaling AC?

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Down. It's not as intuitive, but it's easy enough and it's compatable with already released materials.

7.) Any more ideas, comments or concerns?

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2E needs a reason to play humans. Level limits suck as a balancing system.

I think this is a cool idea, though I do have to wonder how many retro-clones we need. The major advantages of them that I can see is that they bring D&D back to its roots, and they allow you to run old modules without having to monkey around with them in an effort to make them 3.5 compatible.

But as long as you're serious, I say yeah, go for it, but take Psion's advice and Pathfinderize it. 2E has a number of weaknesses that can be improved. I'm personally in favor of ACs that go up, not down. Also, stick with the 6 second combat round instead of the 60 second round. I realize that this is not a big deal, but its more realistic in flavor. Add in the assassin, the half-orc, and the gnome. The random hits for unarmed combat was equally uninspired. Finally, if you're going to do it, go all the way and do the monsters and other DM tools as well.

1) I'd be more interested in a tweaked version that fixes some of the 2nd edition bugs.

2) Guidelines on how to build your own races and classes would probably be best. Expanding the core too much bogs the game down.

3) Tweaked spell schools would be a swell idea.

4) No kits. Most of the good kits are just the core classes played in a different way. The bad ones helped wreck the game.

5) NWPs could be clarified, but they aren't an inherently bad system.

6) Upward scaling AC. THAC0 is just not worth it.

7) The hardest part would be including the setting pieces of 2nd edition. 2nd edition wasn't built on the rules -- it was built on the ecology notes in the Monstrous Manual, the role-playing notes in adventures, and the varied and interesting campaign settings. Obviously you can't replicate all of that, but adding those minor role-playing notes makes the 2nd edition feel, IMO.

Gnomes are a core 2e race in any case.

So far so good...

To be honest, I gave such a project thought a long time ago (1999?) as an idea to rewrite the PHB to include all the options and houserules I was using at the time and to fix things I personally hated (exception Str, I'm looking at you...) All the retro-talk got me thinking about what a 2e one might look like.

Darrin raises a good point though; I wonder how much of a market it would exist for such a product. At the moment, it would be a labor of love.

To start, I'd probably recreate the PHB. 90% of the DMG was advice (and not terribly good advice at that) and the Monster Manual would be a seriously major undertaking.

The big thing, as Psion pointed out, about 2e was its settings. Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Al-Qadim. These made 2e come alive. Obviously, I can't use them, but elements of them would be open (via OGL) so my idea would be simple; create options (called Realms) for people to play in different TSR type-type settings. The Realm of Darkness would give options for Ravenloft (madness, fear and horror), The Realm of Burning Sand would into Dark Sun elements (Half-giants and Psionics). The Realms of Existence give us planar options (aasimar and tieflings).

Keep coming with ideas. Even if I can't pick this project up, perhaps someone else might be inspired.

If you wanted to take a more bite-sized approach to this, you might consider releasing it as a supplement or series of supplements for OSRIC.

For example, release a "2e Combat" supplement with 2e-style initiative, weapon vs. AC, et cetera. Include a list of spells and spell-casting times. Release a "2e PC Creation" supplement with 2e-style classes, NWPs, kits, et cetera. Release a "2e Monsters" supplement with 2e Dragons, Giants, et cetera.

After releasing the supplements, you'll be in a good position to combine them into a single release which will have benefited from feedback and errata.

PapersAndPaychecks said:

From the time of OSRIC 2 release, there'll be Open Game Content in OSRIC (which includes all the character generation stuff, all the spells and the basic mechanics).

The Open Game Content in OSRIC will be, broadly, the first three chapters of this document (except the artwork and the variable experience rule, which are product identity):

OSRIC2_LR.pdf

Simplest way might be just to offer alternative versions of chapters I and III of OSRIC? Alternatively if you wanted to release it as a complete game, talk to me about licensing... if I like the game and it's a community project (i.e. free to the end-user) then I probably won't charge you for the license.

A 2e retro-clone would need different artwork, most likely -- and I don't have the power to license OSRIC's artwork in any case (it remains the property of the original contributor).

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I'm thinking perhaps the best way to start this project would be as a supplement to OSIRIC revamping those chapters and rules for 2nd edition revisions.

I'll hammer out a few samples and see what happens...

I'm more interested in starting with 3e and converting/tweaking elements from 2e, because I think 3e has a stronger core mechanic.

Unearthed Arcana and some DMG options provide a good start
- slow leveling from the DMG

- 3e UA style class variants (which is just more examples of the 3e phb customizing a character) is similar to kits. They provide a good start when combined by swapping class skills and feat choices and prevent the wackiness of some 2e solutions (e.g, 2e using alarm spell for light sleep)

- Specialist wizard: Unearthed Arcana Specialist Wizard variant abilities is similar to the revised abilities that appeared in later sources for the 2e specialists in the 2e phb

- Weapon Groups: UA weapon groups are similar to Weapon Groups in the 2e Complete Fighter's Handbook and PO: Combat and Tactics. The breakdown is slightly different and, admittedly, I prefer the 2e breakdown to those in UA so I do use the 2e groups. UA even provides rules for replacing the starting weapon proficiencies in the PHB and giving each class a set number of weapon groups instead of the Simple and Martial system.

- Spell points: UA has a system and, even options for fatigue

- UA makes a 1/2e style non-raging barbarian easy: Take the Barbarian and apply several options from UA (as appropriate for the culture).
1) Use the barbarian hunter from Unearthed Arcana
2) Replace Favored Enemy with the Favored Terrain variant from UA (assigning the first terrain by the character's home terrain)
3) Use Weapon groups. I'd say assign groups based on culture or create a cultural weapon group.
4) If necessary, replace the weapon style from the hunter variant with a more appropriate weapon style (e.g, a mounted combat or mounted archery style).


Things I would love to see taking it more towards 2e
- shire halfings
- the missing 1e and 2e armor and weapons.
- tailored spell lists for specialist wizards
- the wizard specialists from later products (e.g, alchemist, force mage, shadow mage) from later products. Several of these were introduced in 3e using either PrCs or new classes with completely different mechanics. Personally, I found the approach unsatisfying.
- specialty priests, because domains don't go far enough, imo (although, I would begin with tailoring the spell lists by the deities domains and use the 3e spontaneous divine casting rules from Unearthed Arcana).
- PO: combat and powers crit confirmation which is built into the attack roll rather than a separate confirmation
- restraints on the spell acquisition.

Remathilis said:

Second Edition Gamers, Come unto me!!!

1e has OSRIC. OD&D has a couple clones. 2e has no love.

IMHO, second edition fixed a lot of major issues 1e has (fixing character classes, initiative, and adding NWPs). Its the later supplements that screwed things up with inconsistent power-levels (compare: Complete Priests Handbook to Faiths and Avatars) and poorly thought out ideas (Skills & Powers, I'm looking at you.)

Perhaps it is high-time for a 2e retro-clone. But how?

OSRIC has shown you can make a relatively faithful adaptation of 1e using the OGL and SRD. In fact, OSRIC would probably be a good place to start (piggy-backing off them seems fitting considering how much 2e piggy-backed 1e). There are some considerations to think on though...

1.) Would people be interested in a "faithful" conversion (keeping as much of 2e as possible) or would people be interesting in making a "perfect" edition that fixes and tweaks some poor elements of the game?
2.) The original 2e PHB had six races (human, elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling, half-elf) and nine classes (fighter, ranger, paladin, mage, illusionist, cleric, druid, thief, bard and rules for making specialist wizards and priests). Using the OGL though, you could re-create 2e monks, barbarians, assassins, half-orcs, tieflings, and much of the Complete Book of Humanoids. Would this be a worthwhile consideration; expanding the "core"?
3.) Later books (particularly Spells & Magic) re-organized spell schools, added bennies for specialist wizards, and generally fixed spellcasting classes a bit. Would these changes be welcomed, or would (again) a core-only approach be welcomed?
4.) Kits; yes or no? Specifically, if there were kits, should they be build from the ground up or reproduced from original sources (more or less)?
5.) Fixes to the Non-Weapon Proficiency system or left as is?
6.) Upward or downward scaling AC?
7.) Any more ideas, comments or concerns?

I'm curious right now what a 2e retro-clone should look like.

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1. I would vote for pathfinderizing it. Some things can be better
2.I WOULD STICK WITH 6 AND 9 FOR NOW
3. i WOULD ADD IN THE FIXES
4. I think kits would be cool
5. On the fence on this one
6. upward scaleing


if ya need some help with this I would be happy to lend some time to ya

1) Go the Rolemaster Classic route: make small tweaks and clarifications. Include bigger modifications as optional rules.

2) Expand as much as possible. What is present can easily be ignored, but what is absent must be created and this is far more onerous.

3) Ignore or present as optional rules.

4) Include kits.

5) NWP need some fixing.

6) Descending AC. Ascending AC is just wrong.

7) There is a lot of interesting material in the Complete Books.