House Rule: Second Effort

To help reduce grind, I've instituted the following house rule:

Second Effort

Once per encounter, the PC can expend his Second Effort. When he does so he may re-use an Encounter Attack Power that has already been used. He also gets a +2 bonus to any attacks.

Basically it's similar to a Second Wind, with bonuses to the offense rather than defense.

Comments?

hailstop said:

To help reduce grind, I've instituted the following house rule:

Second Effort

Once per encounter, the PC can expend his Second Effort. When he does so he may re-use an Encounter Attack Power that has already been used. He also gets a +2 bonus to any attacks.

Basically it's similar to a Second Wind, with bonuses to the offense rather than defense.

Comments?

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Not bad, but I think I'd allow it as an optional way to use your Second Wind, instead of in addition to it. In other words, you could either do this or Second Wind, not both.

Does it cost a healing surge?

Samurai said:

Not bad, but I think I'd allow it as an optional way to use your Second Wind, instead of in addition to it. In other words, you could either do this or Second Wind, not both.

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Interesting. I would say it uses a Healing Surge.

How does it work with Dwarves? Because my original thought is: Standard Action to "Second Effort" and as a part of that action, you get to attack with an expended Encounter Power. However, that seems a bit crazy with Dwarves. As is, their Second Wind is basically a free At-Will (since it gives them a standard action, assuming they'd use their Second Wind if it cost a standard action) but with this, it's a free Encounter! power. So maybe their Second Effort costs a Standard Action, which suggests possibly allowing a Second Effort in addition to a Second Wind, though if I did this, I'd make the Second Effort cost a surge.

Requiring a standard action to get back the power (and another later standard action to make the attack) doesn't seem worth it, and I don't see a point in implementing this rule if it's oft neglected.

I do worry about this option being too potent with strikers who have a high chance to hit, though I do think with a 50% chance to hit, the damage / healing ratio is roughly equal.

In the end, I do like this idea, because it sort of encourages the DM to spread around damage, since if the PC doesn't use their Second Wind (because they were unharmed), then they can translate their Second Wind into damage.

Pale Jackal said:

Interesting. I would say it uses a Healing Surge.

How does it work with Dwarves? Because my original thought is: Standard Action to "Second Effort" and as a part of that action, you get to attack with an expended Encounter Power. However, that seems a bit crazy with Dwarves. As is, their Second Wind is basically a free At-Will (since it gives them a standard action, assuming they'd use their Second Wind if it cost a standard action) but with this, it's a free Encounter! power. So maybe their Second Effort costs a Standard Action, which suggests possibly allowing a Second Effort in addition to a Second Wind, though if I did this, I'd make the Second Effort cost a surge.

Requiring a standard action to get back the power (and another later standard action to make the attack) doesn't seem worth it, and I don't see a point in implementing this rule if it's oft neglected.

I do worry about this option being too potent with strikers who have a high chance to hit, though I do think with a 50% chance to hit, the damage / healing ratio is roughly equal.

In the end, I do like this idea, because it sort of encourages the DM to spread around damage, since if the PC doesn't use their Second Wind (because they were unharmed), then they can translate their Second Wind into damage.

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Jackal has a good point. It seems like a waste to spend an action to regain a power, and an action to use it. You could make it a minor action, or make it a standard action that allows them to use an encounter power they already used, instead of just regaining it. Costs a healing surge.

Why not simply give PC's an extra encounter power instead?

(I wouldn't make this into something you'd do instead of second wind. Having to give up your attack for the round is hard as it is - SW doesn't need any more drawbacks IMO)

CapnZapp said:

Why not simply give PC's an extra encounter power instead?

(I wouldn't make this into something you'd do instead of second wind. Having to give up your attack for the round is hard as it is - SW doesn't need any more drawbacks IMO)

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I agree that Second Wind is often unused as it is. I also worry about odd exceptions, where you have an Encounter power that does 4W damage, versus an At-Will which does 1W + some effect, though maybe the lost healing balances out.

Finally, I believe there's a high level Warlord Utility (and I'm sure there are others) which grants another use of an expended Encounter power. It is a daily and costs a standard action.

Either way, I do like the name, I also like the fact it costs a healing surge, though it may change the nature of healing surges (and healing) to a certain extent. In order to prevent this change, I might go against my initial thoughts and have it be something you do instead of Second Wind, HOWEVER, it costs two standard actions. That is, a standard to regain the power, then a standard to use it. If a high level Warlord daily requires the same, giving everyone a similar encounter power seems like it should follow suit!

Off the top of my head, I am trying to think of when it would be worth it to do this. Certainly the Barbarian's Avalanche Strike might warrant this, or other classes who are typically single target damage but have a burst Encounter power. Or powers which have potent, if conditional, effects, such as the Cleric's Level 7 Encounter (potentially) multi-heal. Potentially abusable with Stun-style powers versus Solos, though with Elric's Saving Throws for Solos change that allows saves versus Until the End of Your Next Turn effects and so on, I think it'd be alright.

The fact that it's per encounter and costs a healing surge should prevent the tendency WotC saw for players to simply recharge and spam the same encounter powers.

I am wary of allowing Dwarves to minor then standard to unleash an Encounter Power, so I'd probably call this independent of their Dwarven Resilience, especially since it doesn't fit the flavor of Dwarves quite as well as Second Wind.

Pale Jackal said:

I In order to prevent this change, I might go against my initial thoughts and have it be something you do instead of Second Wind, HOWEVER, it costs two standard actions. That is, a standard to regain the power, then a standard to use it. If a high level Warlord daily requires the same, giving everyone a similar encounter power seems like it should follow suit!

Off the top of my head, I am trying to think of when it would be worth it to do this. Certainly the Barbarian's Avalanche Strike might warrant this, or other classes who are typically single target damage but have a burst Encounter power. Or powers which have potent, if conditional, effects, such as the Cleric's Level 7 Encounter (potentially) multi-heal. Potentially abusable with Stun-style powers versus Solos, though with Elric's Saving Throws for Solos change that allows saves versus Until the End of Your Next Turn effects and so on, I think it'd be alright.

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Glad to see people were reading my "saves on solos thread." I didn't arrive at any final house rule that had everything I'd want in terms of simplicity, continuity with the present system, and keeping the relative balance of conditions/durations similar to what it is now, but I think I was getting pretty close. That thread is http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...s/254080-solos-status-effects-house-rule.html

I think the powers you'd be most worried about players re-using are the multiattack encounter powers: Fighter Rain of Blows, Barbarian Storm of Blades and Hurricane of Blades. Champion of Order's (Paladin PP in PH) Certain Justice power also comes to mind. It's quite overpowered, but having two uses would be somewhat limited by the fact that a typical Paladin can't keep two targets marked at a time.

If you wanted to broaden this idea, what you could do is create a new category called "Recovery Actions". Similar to opportunity actions, you create a generic set and then your more specific actions.

Recovery Actions - These actions allow a creature to recover resources or negate conditions during a fight.
1) Once per encounter - You only get one recovery action per encounter.
2) Uses healing surge - Each recovery action requires the expenditure of a healing surge.

Second Wind - as is.

Greater Effort - Minor Action, allows you to recover an encounter power, and gives you a +2 to your next attack roll.

Dynamic Recovery - Minor Action, allows an immediate saving throw with a +2 bonus.

You could then broaden this to more parts of the game.

Eladrin Will: Can use the Dynamic Recovery action as an immediate interrupt as long as the save is made against a charm effect.

Halfling Heroics (or whatever its called): Can use the Dynamic Recovery action as an immediate interrupt as long as the save is made against a fear effect.

As I have it right now, it is effectively a Free Action and doesn't cost a Healing Surge.