What is so special about Greyhawk?

Lars Porsenna said:

I think this is a cultural thing. FREX, with St Cuthbert, here in the US St Cuthbert is an obscure English saint, and I thought it kind of an interesting parallel.

One thing we did for the Geoff issue is pronounce it more like it was spelled. Thus it wasn't "Jeff" but "Joff." This made it a bit less lame. YMMV.

Damon.

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Hey! We did that too. Gee off. Mostly because my DM at the time was Jeff.

Erik Mona said:

Keep the focus on adventure and what's going on RIGHT NOW, and you don't need to worry about invalidating a bunch of continuity. Advance the timeline to the year 600, keep a few marquee NPCs like Iuz and Mordenkainen, and thereafter keep the focus on the adventures of the PLAYER CHARACTERS, and not on NPCs and history, and you're back at the original formula that made the campaign setting great.

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Well, that didn't work out completely well for Forgotten Realms, judging by the reaction here on En World. A lot of people were pretty set against advancing the time line. Note, I do 100% agree with you, just saying.

pawsplay said:

I will note:
* This doesn't contradict what I said about the modules being exceptional circumstances. Thus, you could very well be right and you still would not have a reason to state you disagree with me about Greyhawk. You would have to furnish a different reason.
* I'd like to see some examples from modules to compare. I haven't looked at one of those things in ages.
* I didn't say anything about characters statted up in the modules. I said the world. I can flip through the NPC guidelines, the treasure tables, and the rest and quickly satisfy myself that a 6th level NPC is not likely, as the rules are set forth, to have many magic iterms, and is likely to have none. Thus, even if I run several Greyhawk modules, I can still, as I said, have the players go back to town and discover that it is still quite town-ish. The sheriff of a town in the grips of an evil conspiracy, or built right next door to a kobold mining operation, or that serves a town home to a special magic item that has been stolen, may very well be more exceptional than your average 6th level NPC.

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I don't believe we get to pick and choose canon. The established canon of the setting, as presented in the modules, has a Greyhawk that is absolutely dripping in magic items. While I agree that what's presented in the DMG may contradict this, it doesn't stop it from being true.

So, yes, if you ran Greyhawk and ignore 99% of the canon, it's a low magic setting where magic items are rare. I'm in complete agreement here.

Hussar said:

I don't believe we get to pick and choose canon. The established canon of the setting, as presented in the modules, has a Greyhawk that is absolutely dripping in magic items. While I agree that what's presented in the DMG may contradict this, it doesn't stop it from being true.

So, yes, if you ran Greyhawk and ignore 99% of the canon, it's a low magic setting where magic items are rare. I'm in complete agreement here.

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While there is a general sense that GH is "low magic" that label often doesn't take into account the campaign-changing magical cataclysms that drive the settings history (Rain of Colorless Fire, Invoked Devestation, whatever magical event created the Rift Valley, the sinking of the Isles of Woe, etc., etc.), and the fact that a good number of 1e DMG artifacts are firmly grounded in Greyhawk (heck, Gygax, Sargent, and Moore each placed one [or suggested its placement in Moore's case] in WG6 Isle of the Ape, Ivid the Undying, and Return of the Eight, respectively). So, Greyhawk certainly has its high magic side.

Even with all of that in mind, however, I think the point that the earlier folks were trying to make is that, yes, while the modules are in fact dripping with magic items, the setting as it's generally established _in canon_ doesn't employ the idea of "magic as a utility" such that every big city has continual light lanterns, that every sergent of the watch wields a magical weapon, and that you can casually run into archmages masquerading as beggars while strolling down the streets of Greyhawk City. I think that's the "low magic" distinction that folks are trying to draw (by default, in comparison to the FR), and even though GH isn't really "low magic" in the way that REH's Hyborian World is, magic is still not common in the daily lives of non-adventurers---it's still uncommon, perhaps even rare. The demographics of magic's availability don't put it into the hands of most of the setting's population.

Not sure if that helps or not, but that's my take on it.

See, Grodog, that's the problem I've got. I agree with you that that is the feel that fans try to promote, but, I'm not sure if it's really supported by canon all that well. Even in very low level modules, like Hommlet, commoners have magic weapons. You were much better off looting the town in Cult of the Reptile God than doing the actual adventure.

That's the stumbling point that I have. Sure, you don't have continual light lanterns on the street (and don't in Forgotten Realms either to my knowledge), but, the modules certainly paint magic as pretty ubiquitous.

Hussar said:

See, Grodog, that's the problem I've got. I agree with you that that is the feel that fans try to promote, but, I'm not sure if it's really supported by canon all that well. Even in very low level modules, like Hommlet, commoners have magic weapons.

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But who were those commoners? Elmo had magical gear, but he was an agent keeping an eye on the town. The priests and druid had magic weapons. The moneychanger had two (but was pretty rich). And the trading post guys had some, but they were agents of the Temple.
Sure, there was magical gear about, but really not that much and the characters who had them had some justification. I don't believe there were any 0-level commoners who had them.

As for whether it's more worthwhile to loot a town rather than the ruins outside it, I don't see why that would be surprising. You could raid for whatever wealth was stashed away decades, maybe centuries ago, or you could prey on the fruits of a vibrant and active economy. Historically speaking, vikings didn't plunder towns because they were poor targets. So I don't see why raiding the town couldn't be an even better target given D&D's cash-based economy. The challenge for PCs in an adventuring party is that doing so will probably be worse, in the long term, than exploring and plundering ruins. They'll get current governments after them, trying to bring them to justice. In the ruins, you get whatever monsters moved in... and most people will applaud their demise.

Hobo said:

Seriously; there's nothing objective about Greyhawk that makes it unique, unusual, or special.

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I disagree with your initial statement, which I think is a nonsequitor with the rest. The rest, however, is 100% right.

I guess it depends on whether you think "D&D original flavor, as its creator intended" is unique, unusual, and special, or not, because it's been copied so extensively by all that comes after it.

My dad was a professor of English literature, and once had a student say, "Why do people think Shakespeare is so good? It's full of cliches." The point of course being -- they were not cliches when he invented them.

Hobo said:

However, for the folks who grew up playing it, Greyhawk and D&D are basically synonomous. To them, Greyhawk is D&D. The flavor of D&D is Greyhawk and the flavor of Greyhawk is D&D. It's the creation of Gary Gygax himself, it's his distillation of what fantasy gaming is supposed to be like and about.
. . .
Greyhawk is D&D.
. . .
Greyhawk was a haphazard mash-up of whatever Gygax was interested in, and that meant jumping around all over the place without much logic or sense, quite frequently.

Just like D&D.

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QFT.

darjr said:

I just realized one of the reasons I love Greyhawk.

Those modules were gonzo, in a world that wasn't.

I mean that most of the world up front had an almost normal historic feeling and depth, but there were dragons in those hills. That helps build a sense of adventure that is addictive and thrilling.

To go from an almost medieval town or village or city with it's medieval issues and problems to find a lost starship filled with wonder, adventure, and danger, is amazing.

Living in a world that was, day to day, almost normal and primitive, and yet know of Iuz and dragons and the planes and the whispered hidden riches guarded by unearthly dangers is deeply fulfilling.

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Good point. I always expressed it by saying, "You need to have a Shire." That is, Tolkien achieved the same effect by starting his mega fantasy not with painting on a van stuff, but with an unexpected tea party in a small village where nothing much ever happens.

Greyhawk had in the Keep, Hommlett, etc.

I think many of things that have already been pointed out throughout this thread help make Greyhawk special. High magic aspects in a low magic (common)world. An initial rough framework of a world that would not be constrictive to DMs, that was then built on and developed through adventures (both the classics, all the way up to the modern Adventure Paths), rather then novels. The whole D&D is Greyhawk, Greyhawk is D&D arguement. Shades of good and evil, law and chaos. The lack of super-NPCs that seem to meddle directly with even the most insignificant adventuring party. And so much more. So I'll agree with many of the previous posters.

There is, however, another huge reason why I think Greyhawk is special that hasn't been mentioned at all yet.

"Its fan-built, w/ lots of contributions *I* have made"

I don't just mean "me, personally", and I don't mean fan websites (like mine) either. Greyhawk, more then any other campaign world, has had significant contributions made by people who were fans first and foremost... In my case it has been things I've done like the City of Greyhawk and Irongate materials that have been published, the influence I've had (and my campaign has had) on other avenues (such as my input into things like the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer), and several other projects, some revealed, and some not.

But many others have had similar experiences as I, some more tangible, others less so. Erik Mona contributed as a fan first, before he was hired full time by WotC (as a result of the quality of work he did as a fan). Gary Holian, Fred Weining, Eric Boyd, Steve Greer, Sam Weiss, Robert Mullin, Joe Bloch, Noel Graham, Scott Casper, Greg Vaughn, Creighton Broadhurst, Paul Looby, Andy Miller, Dave Howery, Scott Bennie, and many others, all were fans who contributed to official published Greyhawk. People just like you and me. Anybody could have the opportunity to contribute. I know I've missed a lot of other Greyhawk fan-authors. If you think of any, post them to this thread.

Then there is the massive force of creativity that was known as the Living Greyhawk Campaign. Hundreds of writers, hundreds of adventures, tens of thousands of pages of development covering virtually every region on the map. Aspects of which have been canonized in published articles and map-locations. NO campaign world put out by ANY company for ANY game system has ever had such an important contribution by the people who actually play the game.

That is how today's Greyhawk has come to be... what, in my opinion, is what today's Greyhawk is all about. It's initial flavor and charm came from its beginnings as someone's (Gygax's) home campaign world, lovingly built. Forgotten Realms began as someone's (Greenwood's) lovingly built home campaign, and then became the corporate Realm. Likewise, Greyhawk evolved, is no longer EGG's home campaign world, and hasn't been for a very long time (well, actually, published GH never really was that).
It's everyone's home campaign world. And you had the opportunity to help it become that.

Denis, aka "Maldin" (my own PC who also has become an official World of Greyhawk NPC!)
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent official and unofficial Greyhawk Goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more!

I'd like to make one further comment, but I wanted to keep it separate from my previous post.

It pains me greatly that the above reason why I think Greyhawk is special, is no longer possible. The avenues through which fans made all those contributions to Greyhawk are gone. WotC has gone through periods (though not as long as the most recent epoch) where very little Greyhawk material was published, and I wouldn't be surprised to see periods where they decide to publish something Greyhawkian again. However Dragon and Dungeon magazines were always there. It disturbs me that all signs seem to indicate that fan contributions are effectively (even if not officially) no longer being accepted by those epublications. There is no more Greyhawk being published anywhere (and no, using things like the gods of Greyhawk as generic core articles does not count - I'm talking actually campaign setting material). Greyhawk, as a setting, seems to have been banned. As well, Living Greyhawk is officially dead, and that vast library of material is lost (as in no longer available to anyone, ever).

But, you say, Greyhawk may appear as a campaign setting in the next few years. Yes, I've heard all the rumors, and hopes, and prayers... however, even if a new Greyhawk campaign setting book(s) were to come out (in the style of the recent setting re-releases)... that would not bring back the vibrancy of: Greyhawk, Everyone's Home Campaign World. Unless that avenue of continued fan contribution were to open up again. When Erik Mona (as a fan!) was asked to tackle the 3E relaunch of Greyhawk (and Living Greyhawk) with the creation of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, he called on many people from the Greyhawk community (and incorporated material written and published by many other fans over the years), to build it. I don't see that happening again. Frankly, I'm not interested in seeing the complete reinvention of the setting by a single staff writer with a bizarre "hook" (such as jumping the timeline, or gutting the world's canon) working in a vacuum.

I WOULD be interested in seeing a new setting book that stayed true to Greyhawk's published past, expanded on new areas of the campaign world, and set the stage for continued support and fan contributions to keep the setting vibrant.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk Goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more!

I agree with all Maldin states above. If Greyhawk is to get a proper footing into the next edition it must have a way for fans to contribute either in new development or through official adaptation of old canon materials. This is the only way to bring the fans into the new rules set and not fracture us away even further.

Fan contributions are particularly important in Greyhawk, since the setting was OOP and officially dead/on extended hiatus for two long interregnums. Plus, as Denis justifiably stated, the work of many fans has been incorporated into the setting over time, once unofficial fan works became canon when published by WotC (which doesn't make them any less ignorable

A good example: I'm using the term "Jasidian" for a cult of heretical Wee Jas worshippers in I'm running this weekend at the . The term always stuck in my head as one I liked, so I decided to use it for these bad guys: fan works being transformed when used by other fans is part-and-parcel of the GH setting, and the fanbase's culture!