What alignment is Cobra Commander - the Official Word

pawsplay said:

Unfortunately for this explanation, Darth Vader is Chaotic Evil.

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Well, remember, this is from the 1980s, so he would have seemed a bit more lawful back then.

Using the 1E alignments:

CE: The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims.

LE: Creatures of this alignment are great respecters of laws and strict oder, but life, beauty, truth, freedom and the like are held as valueless or at least scorned. By adhering to stringent discipline, those of lawful evil alignment hope to impose their yoke upon the world.

And of course, we don't have him as Anakin either...

Anyway, we can argue alignment classifications till the cows come home, set up shop, go out in the morning, mutate into giant killer death cows after a nuclear bomb blast, and destroy the universe, so it's really not going to be settled anyway. I'm just pointing out that the terms used in a historical document reflect those times.

Bumbles said:

Well, remember, this is from the 1980s, so he would have seemed a bit more lawful back then.

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I really don't think so.

In the first few minutes he is ever on-screen, we see:
* Barging into a ship and strangling someone basically for annoying him, without even making sure he had all the info he needed.
* Stating his willingness to ignore Leia's diplomatic privileges in order to pursue his investigation.
* An autocratic, impulsive order: "Tear this ship apart." Of course, the plans are not actually on the ship. Vader was just being impatient and wishing the plans were on the ship.
* Later in the movie, despite being an important part of the command structure, he responds to his precognition that Luke is attacking the Death Star, and personally commands a fighter.

In the Empire Strikes back, we learn, "The deal has changed." We also hear Vader promise to kill the Emperor if Luke will join him.

In Return of the Jedi, it's not clear why Vader does anything at all. He seems to be mainly responding to his emotions.

Lawful Evil would be like Moff Tarkin or Jabba the Hutt.

pawsplay said:

Unfortunately for this explanation, Darth Vader is Chaotic Evil.

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Say what?

Darth Vader is the classic Lawful Evil villain. He wants a peaceful and orderly galaxy, and he doesn't care who he has to kill or what he has to do to get order.

Listen to Anakin's little manifesto in Episode II when he's on Naboo and talks about wanting everybody to agree. . .by force if necessary. Remember how he tried to recruit Luke at the end of Empire? He told him that by teaming up, they could put an end to the conflict in the galaxy through their combined force.

Someone who is the Number Two person in a massive galaxy-spanning Empire with truly monumental bureaucracy, unfathomable oppression, and a penchant for using overwhelming and relentless force to solve its problems is pretty much going to be Lawful Evil

As for Cobra Commander, the TV show version was definitely Chaotic Evil trying to fill the part of a Lawful Evil character, while the Comic Book version was more Neutral Evil with Lawful tendencies. Cobra Commander was a character with a Wisdom penalty, a moderate Intelligence bonus, and a very high Charisma.

pawsplay said:

I really don't think so.

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That's nice, but...

Anyway, we can argue alignment classifications till the cows come home, set up shop, go out in the morning, mutate into giant killer death cows after a nuclear bomb blast, and destroy the universe, so it's really not going to be settled anyway. I'm just pointing out that the terms used in a historical document reflect those times.

I really do mean it, and I really am not going to waste time arguing over what somebody else said with you. If you want to find people arguing over what alignments somebody has, I'd suggest starting a new thread, rather than hashing it out here.

wingsandsword said:

Say what?

Darth Vader is the classic Lawful Evil villain. He wants a peaceful and orderly galaxy, and he doesn't care who he has to kill or what he has to do to get order.

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Darth Vader wants people to do what he tells them to do, when he tells them to do it, and if he wants them to die, they die. He wants revenge for all the perceived injustice he has perceived from those more experienced than him, and power over life and death. His idea of a peaceful and orderly galaxy is one that is answerable to him, personally... certainly not the restoration of the Senate, the Imperial bureaucracy, which he despises and abuses, or a military rulership, considering his total disregard for the Navy leadership.

Listen to Anakin's little manifesto in Episode II when he's on Naboo and talks about wanting everybody to agree. . .by force if necessary. Remember how he tried to recruit Luke at the end of Empire? He told him that by teaming up, they could put an end to the conflict in the galaxy through their combined force.

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Attempting to solve problems by ignoring the law and resorting to force is not a very Lawful approach. Simply putting an end to conflict is not necessarily Lawful. It's a stronger argument for saying Vader is not evil, which is to say, not very strong at all.

Someone who is the Number Two person in a massive galaxy-spanning Empire with truly monumental bureaucracy, unfathomable oppression, and a penchant for using overwhelming and relentless force to solve its problems is pretty much going to be Lawful Evil

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Or a loose cannon. Or Orcus. Or Saruman.

Vader was not instrumental in the Imperial bureuacracy; in many ways, he was its antithesis, the Emperor's personal representative who cut, and would, cut through the red tape at any time.

Bumbles said:

If you want to find people arguing over what alignments somebody has, I'd suggest starting a new thread, rather than hashing it out here.

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I'm responding to the analogy made in the OP.

I knew I should have cut off the quote before the Darth Vader reference. If you want to discuss Vader please take it elsewhere. Cobra Commander's alignment is fair game, but I don't remember seeing Vader in a GI Joe comic or cartoon.

Fifth Element said:

I knew I should have cut off the quote before the Darth Vader reference. If you want to discuss Vader please take it elsewhere. Cobra Commander's alignment is fair game, but I don't remember seeing Vader in a GI Joe comic or cartoon.

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You added a little gasoline to the fire with this:

Those alignments are spot-on for the characters, of course.

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Since Destro's "spot on" alignment included the reference to el Vaderino, it became a premise of the discussion.

So anyway, CC is Chaotic Evil in much the same way and for the same reasons as Vader.

Anyway, back to GI JOE....anybody think Cobra and the Scarlet Brotherhood feel somewhat similar?

I would seem to think that Vader would most likely be Neutral Evil, while Cobra Commander is more Chaotic Neutral. I would love to back that up with examples, but I can't at the moment.