Holy cow my party has 3 strikers in it


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tiornys

Explorer
Can anyone name a controller roll that isn't carried out well by the other classes. I've tinkered with making an optimized party before, and it never includes wizards (4 strikers, 1 leader). Killing minions is a nothing job. Most classes have attacks that wipe out a small area, and anyone can gain an area encounter attack by being a half-elf or a dragon born (and with a higher to-hit bonus).
As far as all those other things wizards do, you know how they... uh... well they're pretty good at...
...

So yeah the controllers bring down pretty much any threats one or two at a time in just rounds. Solo fights go twice as fast as with a conventional party. Fights in which the wizard normally sits their picking his nose as his daily MIGHT do as much to the solo as the rogues at-will. As the DM, I usually let a few minions come in after a few rounds, mostly out of pity for the guy.
Controllers do much more than kill minions. They apply better debuffs more consistently to more enemies than other roles. They're better at forced movement than other roles. They're the masters of reshaping the battlefield. Oh, and yes, they also excel at area of effect attacks, which happen to be good against minions.

Hmm

Strikers: Bonus damage dice

Defenders: Mark

Leaders: Heal 2/combat

Controllers: ...?

What am I missing?
You're missing the forest for the trees. Each role is so much more than you're making them out to be. Controllers directly counter enemy strategies and disrupt enemy tactics. Defenders disrupt focus fire and prevent enemies from engaging their preferred targets. Leaders enable party tactics and enhance party efficiency. Strikers engage and neutralize priority targets as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Without a Controller, a party is much more vulnerable to coordinated enemy tactics.

It's really a simple concept. The balance factor between a defender and a striker is that the defender trades excessive damage for a slight bit more defense, and the ability to force targets to attack him. I've got news for you: getting focus fired in 4e is bad news. Inviting it is usually unwise. Since any striker can GTFO, their chances of being focus fired are actually quite low.
Ironically, this is why I think a second defender is the best choice for a 5th party member (although I think that defender should be capable of near-striker level damage). Defenders are the best role at pulling enemies off of an ally who is suffering focused fire. If the Defender becomes the target of the focus fire, no one is better than a second Defender at pulling enemies off of him.

t~
 

rainsinger

First Post
What it comes down to, in my opinion at least (and sorry if this comment seems to insult anyone) is that what holds true in most games holds true even more strictly in 4E: A good GM challenges players regardless of the circumstances.

If you've got a group of all strikers, then (as stated many times already) shake things up and make it harder and/or make them have to do something other than just jump in and kill stuff. While the standardized encounters that are in much of the produced material thus far give you battles that are very friendly to strikers, it's not that difficult or time consuming to modify them or completely overhaul them to fit your wants and needs.

You could realistically have a party of all Paladins and still have combat go quickly or very slow completely based on the encounters they are given. Just worth keeping in mind that one very important thing: You make the game the way you want it so that you and your players can enjoy it.

...not to say a good old fashioned deathfest isn't fun now and then too. :p

I have found that the most fun is when you have a balanced party that takes advantage of all the various types of combat abilities, and a GM who forces them to be tactical and quick on their feet (so to speak).
 

eriktheguy

First Post
Controllers do much more than kill minions. They apply better debuffs more consistently to more enemies than other roles. They're better at forced movement than other roles. They're the masters of reshaping the battlefield. Oh, and yes, they also excel at area of effect attacks, which happen to be good against minions.

But to what end? Dead is clearly a better debuff than anything a wizard can throw out there. Generally when I see Wizards tossing out their debuffs it is very ineffective because the die rolls are not in their favor. First they have to hit (about 60%) then the enemy has to fail to save (45%). Our invoker blasted an entire battlefield with over 15 minions and 4 other enemies with a slow debuff only to effect less than a quarter of them. Our dragonborn defender quickly applied the 'dead' debuff to at least 5 of them, as well as drawing the fire of their leader. I noticed that the minions weren't able to make saves against 'dead'. Because of the controllers daily 4 or 5 minions were not able to make it into melee in the first round. Maybe 15 damage was prevented (leaders can do that 2/encounter as a minor). I see the controller's role, but I don't see them as effective.

You're missing the forest for the trees. Each role is so much more than you're making them out to be. Controllers directly counter enemy strategies and disrupt enemy tactics. Defenders disrupt focus fire and prevent enemies from engaging their preferred targets. Leaders enable party tactics and enhance party efficiency. Strikers engage and neutralize priority targets as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Without a Controller, a party is much more vulnerable to coordinated enemy tactics.

My point was that each of the different party rolls get a bonus to help them perform their role. Defenders get their mark (and usually added abilities), strikers get bonus dice (or similar abilities in PHB2) and leaders get their heals. These abilities are all extremely powerful and define the class. You could claim that controllers' class roles are covered in their powers, but look at their at-wills. None of these seem that powerful to me (I'm looking at Wizard atm). Slow one target, blast 9 squares for a d6... Not so great. The Sorcerer has better area at-wills (such as burning spray or blazing starfall deal more damage with the sorcerers power class feature). So yes, the controller has a class role, but I feel that the other classes can easily 'control' the battlefield and that the controllers are not much better at doing so. No class is better at healing than a healer, no one can draw fire like the defender, the strikers are unmatched in focus fire, but anyone can do the controller's job.

In my party of 6, when we fight mass hordes of enemies, our 3 strikers quickly dance/tumble/teleport past enemies and bring down the leader in 2-3 rounds. Without a not-dead-enemy-leader, the party is far less vulnerable to enemy tactics.

Ironically, this is why I think a second defender is the best choice for a 5th party member (although I think that defender should be capable of near-striker level damage). Defenders are the best role at pulling enemies off of an ally who is suffering focused fire. If the Defender becomes the target of the focus fire, no one is better than a second Defender at pulling enemies off of him.

t~
If the first defender was a striker with a few GTFO powers, the second defender seems unnecessary. Besides, even if one of the strikers gets focused and goes down occasionally, the party still has more damage output with 4 strikers than a typical 'well mixed' party.
 

Old Gumphrey

First Post
Yup. I can say from experience across all editions, nothing disrupts the DM's strategy like killing a whole funload of bad guys really quickly. Controllers disrupt enemy strategy by dazing them; strikers disrupt it by making them dead. Dead is even better than stunned, and it doesn't allow a save, or end at some point during someone's next turn.

I mean, I'd rather have 2 or 3 enemies left standing than 5 dazed/slowed/weakened enemies standing.
 

Lord Zardoz

Explorer
Controllers do much more than kill minions. They apply better debuffs more consistently to more enemies than other roles. They're better at forced movement than other roles. They're the masters of reshaping the battlefield. Oh, and yes, they also excel at area of effect attacks, which happen to be good against minions.

I think that no one disputes that what you describe is the intended area of expertise of teh Controller role. What most people are disputing is that the wizard is particularly effective at this. I also suspect that many people are dissatisfied with the Controller role as a whole.

However, I think that area of discussion has been covered in other threads.

END COMMUNICATION
 

Herschel

Adventurer
Yup. I can say from experience across all editions, nothing disrupts the DM's strategy like killing a whole funload of bad guys really quickly. Controllers disrupt enemy strategy by dazing them; strikers disrupt it by making them dead. Dead is even better than stunned, and it doesn't allow a save, or end at some point during someone's next turn.

I mean, I'd rather have 2 or 3 enemies left standing than 5 dazed/slowed/weakened enemies standing.


But as you even said: Focus Fire is bad. The controller and defender can stop this from happening. All strikers can't. A well designed and well played encounter shreds them because of this. If your DM doesn't challenge you, that's fine but you're pointing out an extremely over-simplified (and thereby inaccurate) view of 4E combat in the game at large.
 

Blackbrrd

First Post
But as you even said: Focus Fire is bad. The controller and defender can stop this from happening. All strikers can't. A well designed and well played encounter shreds them because of this. If your DM doesn't challenge you, that's fine but you're pointing out an extremely over-simplified (and thereby inaccurate) view of 4E combat in the game at large.

Well, now you are oversimplifying it as well. ;)

A Defender/Controller can be of great help in many situations but not every. I ran one fight the other day that had the party scattered all over the place and none of the characters managed to do exactly what they wanted.

There was no way the party could stop me from focus firing on the defender, so he went down. The leader couldn't get to him to heal him to start with and instead healed a striker that was going down.

The controller was caught up with two brutes and could not position himself for damage/control.

It was a really hard encounter, but great fun for both me and the players.
 

eriktheguy

First Post
But as you even said: Focus Fire is bad. The controller and defender can stop this from happening. All strikers can't. A well designed and well played encounter shreds them because of this. If your DM doesn't challenge you, that's fine but you're pointing out an extremely over-simplified (and thereby inaccurate) view of 4E combat in the game at large.

I disagree. Strikers can control focus fire both by making enemies dead, by threatening opportunity attacks, and by simply taking it. If one rogue goes down the party does not lose any field control and just keeps dealing damage. Four strikers can still take down a group of monsters pretty fast.
The arguments the people in this forum make aren't that strikers are the best in concept, only in practice. Other classes do not have enough power to fulfill their roles as effectively as the striker. In most 4e combat I see the rest of the party distracts monsters that the striker isn't killing, while the striker kills the monsters. 5 Strikers just kill all the monsters, more effective. I would put one leader in my party, but mostly just to set up flanking and prevent a KO or two, otherwise, strikers.
 

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