Differences between Norse/ Nordic/ Scandinavian and Germanic/ German/ Teutonic myths

Joshua Dyal said:

For instance, and I really wish I could remember where I read this, Odin didn't really used to be that important of a god, and he certainly wasn't the "All-father" until his cult, which spread from Germany, actually, pushed him forward. Before that, Thor was the king of the gods in the Germanic tradition. Another intriguing proposition I've heard is that the Vanir are not a native Germanic tradition, and represent increasing contact with Celtic mythology; in other words, the Vanir are the Celtic pantheon, and the Vanir/Aesir war represent relations between Germanic and Celtic peoples! I'm not sure how much I buy that idea, but it is intriguing.

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To add a bit on this, IIRC:

Supposedly, Tyr (or Tiw, or Tiwas) was the original sky-father deity of the Germanic myths (Tyr/Tiw/Tiwas, IIRC, is the Germanic version of the Indo-European Dyeus-Pitar, or "Sky Father" figure; the Greek Zeus ultimately derives his name from the same linguistic root). Thor apparently grew in prominence/absorbed the "sky father" attributes, with Tyr being relegated to the role of a war deity.

Which actually happened to greater or lesser degree in many other Indo-European religions too. I mean, *dyeus piter and Ju-piter, and Zeus -(pitar dropped) are all fairly transparently linguistically all the same, but from an actual religious standpoint, Jupiter/Zeus is clearly a combination of the Sky-father figure and the Thunder-god figure from proto-Indo-european mythology. In Germanic folklore, rather than combining Tyr and Thor overtly, Thor merely took on a few of Tyr's features, and Tyr faded from importance. And then Odin later came and re-usurped Tyr's position, putting Thor more firmly back into the Thunder-god/wargod role.

Quite interesting, actually.

H.R. Ellis Davidson has several useful books on the Norse and Germanic myths, gods, and religions -- they are probably the most accessible resources commonly available and I highly recommend them. In the last week I have seen her books at both Borders and Barnes & Noble, as well as at Amazon.com.

Joshua Dyal said:

For instance, and I really wish I could remember where I read this, Odin didn't really used to be that important of a god, and he certainly wasn't the "All-father" until his cult, which spread from Germany, actually, pushed him forward. Before that, Thor was the king of the gods in the Germanic tradition.

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Hm. What I have read in various sources is that Tyr (aka Tiw or Tiwaz, from whom Tuesday gets it's name) was the "king". I've not read anyone claiming that Thor was king of the Norse gods.

I have read that it is commonly thought that Thor was the Norse god most commonly revered by people, which is not the same thing. He's got connotations of protecting the weak, being a friend to mortals, and all that. His position in the pantheon is not necessarily connected with how much real-world folks like him.

Prior to his switch to being All-Father, Odin seems to have had a more mystic and messenger aspect. Gandalf the Grey from Tolkien may have borrowed much of his image from very early Odin.

And since it's been a really long time since I read that, and I can't seem to find the source that I read that in, you're probably right and I'm probably wrong, Umbran.

As to the original question of the thread, Roman, I think you're a bit confused by the terminologies, which is understandable. Germanic doesn't equate to German, which is the confusing thing. Norse/Scandinavian, and German and Anglo-Saxon and Gothic and others are subsets of Germanic in the same way that Cockney, or Southern Drawl, or West Coast Australian are subsets of English. It's also important to remember that they are primarily linguistic designations, though, and although culture and actual genetic makeup and such usually correspond fairly closely to linguistic entities, they don't necessarily. It's fairly easy to come up with counter examples. Shaquille O'Neal isn't Irish, for instance, despite his last name, nor is he of Germanic descent despite the fact that he speaks English, a Germanic language.

The other thing to keep in mind, and I'm not sure how clearly it's been spelled out, is that there is no "absolute" correct interpretation of Germanic, or any other, mythos really. It depends on location both geographically and temporally, and there are big changes as you move around in space and time. In many ways Sturleson's work is the most definitive interpretation, but that's really only because it's the best documented. It's debatable if anyone actually ever believed in the mythos as Sturleson wrote it.

Wombat said:

H.R. Ellis Davidson has several useful books on the Norse and Germanic myths, gods, and religions -- they are probably the most accessible resources commonly available and I highly recommend them. In the last week I have seen her books at both Borders and Barnes & Noble, as well as at Amazon.com.

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Just a little note: While H.R. Ellis Davidson has interesting ideas regarding Norse mythology, some of them are subject to debate in the academic community, at least here in Sweden. She has drawn certain conclusions regarding the relationship between Norse and Germanic mythology that isn't, how should I put it, wholeheartedly accepted by her peers among the scholars.

However, her books are an interesting read (I have a Swedish translation of Gods & Myths of Northern Europe), and could provide you a lot of neat ideas for your own fantasy version of the Norse Mythology.

BTW, I'm surprised that none of my Scandinavian fellows on these forums haven't jump into the fray yet?! Most roleplayers I have meet here in Sweden know quite a lot regarding Norse mythology; it comes with the territory I guess.

Cheers,
Meadred

I'm not really familiar with Davidson; what has she written that's controversial?

Regarding the Christian influence in the works of Snorre Sturlason: This was very likely a necessary evil for Snorre. His ambition was to collect the traditional poems and epics of the Norse myths, get them written down for posterity since they only existed as a dying oral tradition.

For this he was dragged to court in Iceland, accused of being an heretic. He was treathened with the death penalty unless he swore he was Christian before the court. After this incident he moved to Norway, were things were a bit more relaxed, and continued his work there.

*I love this thread*

More! More!

Hmm, if much of our current knowledge of Norse/Germanic myths is based on the works of one author it appears that we do not really know all that much about them - there is no way one author could compile all the important myths - sounds like we are only scratching the surface of Norse mythology. I suspect this may also be the case with other old mythological systems.