Wu Jen spells... kinda.... suck?

Hey, everyone. I'm playing a Wu Jen in an upcoming campaign, and, over the last few days, I've been looking over the Wu Jen spells a lot. And the conclusion I've come to, for the majorty of the Wu Jen-only spells, is that... well... they kinda suck. I mean, they sound cool and all, but the majority of them do far too little for their level, and can easily be duplicated (to greater effect) with a lower-level spell.

Take, for example, Cloud Chariot.

Cloud Chariot is a 7th-level Wu Jen [Water] spell that, for 10 minutes (10 minutes, not 10 minutes/level), creates a chariot of clouds that people can ride on that can go as fast as 10 miles a minute. Alright, that's neat, it goes pretty fast, alright. But it can only go 100 miles maximum, and in almost every case a Teleport spell would be better. I mean, there are definitely situations where it could be incredibly useful (such as chasing a fast enemy), but is it really worth being a 7th-level spell? After all, that's the level of Limited Wish and Greater Teleport. 7th-level?

Also, let's look at Rain of Needles.

Rain of Needles is a 2nd-level Wu Jen [Metal] spell that, at maximum, can do 20 points of damage to a SINGLE target, no save. If you cause it to affect two targets, that's 10 points of damage each, four targets get 5 points each, and so on. And that's the MAXIMUM it can do, at 5th-level. It even requires a Ranged Attack roll against each target. Then, look at Hail of Stone- a 1st-level spell that has the same damage cap (5d4), except that it affects everyone in a 5-foot radius, doesn't require an attack roll, and doesn't need a save- so, at maximum, it could do 20 points of damage to FOUR people. True, it has a 5-gp material component as a balancing factor, but it's a FULL LEVEL below Rain of Needles. What gives?

Also, one error I noticed in the Wall of Bones spell is that, according to the spell, a creature can attempt to make a Strength check to break through the wall, with a DC of 15 + 2 per caster level, maximum +10- meaning that you get the maximum effect once you've reached 5th level. Well, it's a 4th-level spell, meaning you can't even cast it until you're 7th level. Is the cap supposed to be higher? Is it supposed to be +1 per level instead of +2 per level?

Oh, and Protection from Charm (Wu Jen 2) doesn't seem useful to me at all. It grants the recipient a resistance bonus of +1 per three caster levels (maximum +5) against any Will save against a Charm of Compulsion spell or effect. That, in and of itself, isn't very good (considering that it's a resistance bonus, which every PC is going to have by the time it's useful, as well as the fact that it only goes to one save). But the worst part? It's only a round/level! So, for a 2nd-level spell, you get a bonus to one save that probably won't stack with what you already have, and the only time you'll be able to cast it is when you know someone's about to cast a Charm or Compulsion spell on you. What the heck?

And another thing. Internal Fire (9th-level Wu Jen [Fire] spell) sounds great- it's a Save-or-Die spell that, if the target makes their save, they take 6d6 fire damage. Well, the problem with it, of course, is that it can only affect 1HD/level of creatures. So you could either use it to take out one big thing (which will be useless, considering that the majority of creatures you'll be fighting by the time you're able to cast 9th-level spells will either A. be immune to fire, or B. have more Hit Dice than you. You could always try and kill two smaller creatures with it, but they'd have to be pretty low-HD monsters in order to affect them. I mean, it's a good spell (considering it's an instant kill without being a death effect), but it's 9th-level for crying out loud! Decapitating Scarf is an instant kill without being a death effect as well, but it doesn't have the HD cap, and it's 7th-level.

The Wu Jen is a cool class, and I really like the flavor of a lot of their spells, they just suck. Is this intentional? (I.e., were they like this in the Oriental Adventures setting?) Does anyone know if there's any erratta on any of these spells, or does anyone have any suggestions for making their spells... well... less sucky?

Any help would be most appreciated.

UltimaGabe said:

Cloud Chariot is a 7th-level Wu Jen [Water] spell that, for 10 minutes (10 minutes, not 10 minutes/level), creates a chariot of clouds that people can ride on that can go as fast as 10 miles a minute. Alright, that's neat, it goes pretty fast, alright. But it can only go 10 miles maximum, and in almost every case a Teleport spell would be better. I mean, there are definitely situations where it could be incredibly useful (such as chasing a fast enemy), but is it really worth being a 7th-level spell? After all, that's the level of Limited Wish and Greater Teleport. 7th-level?

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I didn't read the entirety of your post, but Cloud Chariot is capable of moving you 100 miles per hop(10 miles x 10 minutes). Still weak compared to teleport but hey, enjoy the flavor.

fafhrd said:

I didn't read the entirety of your post, but Cloud Chariot is capable of moving you 100 miles per hop(10 miles x 10 minutes). Still weak compared to teleport but hey, enjoy the flavor.

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Yes, that was my entire point. It takes longer than Teleport, has shorter range than teleport, and it's two levels higher than teleport (and the same level as Greater Teleport). I understand that there's a situation or two where it could possibly be useful, but it's not worth a 7th-level slot in any case.

UltimaGabe said:

Yes, that was my entire point. It takes longer than Teleport, has shorter range than teleport, and it's two levels higher than teleport (and the same level as Greater Teleport). I understand that there's a situation or two where it could possibly be useful, but it's not worth a 7th-level slot in any case.

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Sorry for the confusion. In your initial post you said it went "10 miles maximum". I guess you were referring to speed(per hour) rather than total distance.

As to your claim that the spells, on the balance, suck...well there are a number of people who feel wizards got the shaft by the lack of inclusion in a large part of the Wu Jen list. I find arguments that go "x is better then y" and "no y is better than x" to be a simple indicator or gross balance. The perceived imbalance may be resulting from a difference class focus.

A concurrent thread notes clerics get plane shift a good bit earlier than wiz/sorcs, despite the fact that wizard's access to teleport gives them the title in terms of transport utility. Wu Jens (and I'm not speaking from an authoritative position here. I'm one of those bitter about Wu Jen eating into my precious CA and haven't reviewed the full spell lists.) may have to pay more for transport in return for, say nifty things like Giant size.

fafhrd said:

Sorry for the confusion. In your initial post you said it went "10 miles maximum". I guess you were referring to speed(per hour) rather than total distance.

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Sorry, my mistake. I made a typo- I meant to type "100 miles", not "10 miles".

Wu Jens [snip] may have to pay more for transport in return for, say nifty things like Giant size.

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You see, but THAT'S the thing- it's not like they're limited to Cloud Chariot. They STILL GET TELEPORT! I'm not saying that Wizards get good spells and Wu Jen get bad spells- they BOTH get good spells, but Wu Jen get a bunch of bad spells tossed on top of it. And the only thing that bothers me is that these bad spells are HIGHER LEVELS than the good spells that they ALREADY HAVE. Cloud Chariot sucks in comparison to Teleport, which Wu Jen also get, and Rain of Needles sucks in comparison to Hail of Stone, which Wu Jen get. And Internal Fire, in my opinion, isn't as good as Decapitating Scarf. THAT'S my point- some of the higher-level Wu Jen spells are worse than lower-level Wu Jen spells.

I just broke out the book, looked at the examples you listed and am largely forced to agree. I'd think the class was an afterthought if it didn't take up so much material. The Cloud Chariot and Internal fire(especially with the 1 round casting time, blech) comparisons are pretty much inexcusable. The only thing Rain of Needles has going for it is it doesn't require the "costly" component.

There is an errata document for the original Oriental Adventures versions of many of these spells. There is also an alternative 3.5 update of the original material in a Dragon Magazine issue some time back (try around 318) by the author of OA.

I have e-mailed some questions on some spells to WotC customer service, because it looks like they used the original un-corrected OA text for the source of some spells.

I think the Cut 'n' Paste goblins attacked that book. That's why there's so many unerrataed OA style Wu Jen spells.

But they get the cool scarf spell. Not stopping that thing. But I totally understand your point.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone

There's something of a tradition when it comes to wu jen and weaker spells, going back all the way to 1st Ed. Originally, I think that OA was envisioned as being a slightly lower-magic setting compared to the Occidental setting.

I remember playing a 1st Ed wu jen in an Occidental campaign, and I really had to avoid too much focus on direct combat spells, because many of them were simply inferior versions of core PHB spells. Rain of Fire and Drowsy Insects were flavourful but weak versions of Fireball and Sleep respectively, with the originals not being on the wu jen spell list (in fact, the ineffectiveness of my Rain of Fire castings became a running joke in the campaign). In 3.x versions of the class, some more wizard spells have become available, so things have improved if anything. However, many of the spells are conversions from the old wu jen spell list, often retained at the original spell level they had in 1st Ed. As a result you get this inconsistency you mention.

That said, there's loads of flavour with some of these spells, and I remember coming up with some great combos (like casting Metal Skin on an opponent, followed by Magnetism on a nearby large object). And I think that Cloud Chariot is a must have for any 'Monkey' fans out there!