Darkness+Devil's Sight is killing my campaign

Thanee said:

Wow, you must play a different edition than I do... fighters hit only 50% with their *best* attack in your games?

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Note: I had an error above. Warlocks at 15th level do 7D6, not 8D6 (I didn't have the book with me and was extrapolating low level damage).

Ok, using the sample 15th level Fighter, Ranger, and Paladin NPCs out of the DMG:

Fighter +23 to hit, D10+9 damage (assuming his ranged attacks would be as good as his melee numbers here if he wanted to be an Archer)

Ranger+24 to hit, D8+6 damage

Paladin +21 to hit, D8+5 damage

So far, all of these guys hit for less average damage than my earlier example. Let’s look at 15th level NPC ACs in the DMG:

Bard: 19
Cleric: 24
Druid: 23
Fighter: 28
Monk: 25
Paladin: 26
Ranger: 23
Rogue: 22
Sorcerer: 19
Wizard: 20

Now these surprised me since the PCs in my last campaign at 8th to 10th level were often in the high 20s to low 30s and I would expect NPCs to be just as anal on survival as PCs (hence, low 30s by 15th level). Also, there are more defensive magical items (and ways to increase AC) in the game then there are offensive ones.

Even so, using these numbers puts the Fighter at anywhere from 26 points of damage to 41 points of damage on average. Better than the Warlock’s 25 points against most NPCs.

But then again, I think these ACs are pretty darn low compared to what we saw in our mid-level games, probably because they do not include any protective spells.

Looking in the Monster Manual for CR 15 encounters and their AC / chance to hit with best attack / average damage full round attack this fighter above would do to them:

Marut, 34 / 50% / 13
Vampire Half Elf Mnk 9/Shd 4, 32 / 60% / 17

Which is more in the ballpark of what I was thinking compared to 25 points by the Warlock against the Marut and 19 points against the Vampire Monk.

Note: the Vampire Monk here has a touch AC of 23 (which is extremely high for most encounters, NPCs or monsters), so the Warlock would hit him less often (at +16, an average of 19, still more than the Fighter).


And, of course, this does NOT include any modification to the EB due to Eldritch Essence Invocations.


So yeah, not quite as bad as I thought, but still potent. The Warlock never runs out of arrows.

Thanee said:

15th level sorcerers have only about 50 hit points!?

Did they never hear of Con bonuses (from spells or items) and temporary hit points (empowered False Life)?

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The 15th level NPC Sorcerer and Wizard in the DMG have 54 hit points each.

I do not doubt that enemy spellcasters can have up protection spells, but if they do, it will also protect against the Archers as well as the Warlocks (i.e. Dex buff items in addition to Con buff items, etc.).

IIRC Warlock's do not have False Life. Sorcerers and Wizards do. At 15th level, that's over 20 extra hit points on average with a duration that it's reasonable to assume, it's always active (until used up in case of the Wizard, the Sorcerer will simply renew it everytime after combat).

I basically meant, that you cannot just take the fiftysomething hit points there as the total you need to remove. That's not what will happen in a 15th level encounter.

Bye
Thanee

Laman Stahros said:

FYI, what you are talking about here is not "all according to the rules". You cannot become flatfooted in the middle of combat. Flatfooted only exists at the beginning of combat (as per the DMG).

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Generally but not absolutely true.

See the Balance skill in the PHB, or the Flick of the Wrist feat in Complete Warrior for examples.

-Hyp.

Ugh ... The reason your comparison is off is that the NPCs from the DMG are very underequipped for their levels.

The number of critters in the MM alone that have Scent, Tremorsense, or other "uber" senses that negate darkness is very large. And many of them are common monsters, too.

I have players reroll anything under half hp until they get half or more. Next campaign I'm going to give out flat hp numbers. I'm finding the random generation to be more and more of a sacred cow that needs slaying.

Word gets around when people start using a particular tactic. Have you tried setting an ambush with spiked pit traps or 'ankle braeakers'? Maybe use some area of effect gear (alchemist fire or homebrewed grenades). Alchemy can also make a mundane version of stinking cloud (stink pot ahoy!!). Have archers waiting outside the cloud to pick them off as the come out. Doesn't even have to be specifically for them: goblins could use these methods to improve raids.


If you are interested in OGL sources, there is a book that provides an interesting feat. You lob arrows into an area, putting one arrow in a 5 foot square. I don't remember the exact progression, just the max coverage (an arrow in every square in a 20' x 20' area). It's especially vicious if the main BBEG uses little 'opponents' as bait to draw out your players. Why would he care if the bait took a hit?

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

Ugh ... The reason your comparison is off is that the NPCs from the DMG are very underequipped for their levels.

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I agree. They seem to have the offensive items, but not the defensive ones.

I also think that PCs (and hence NPCs) go out of their way to acquire AC boost items, just so that they will not get hit at 15th level 95% of the time by 15th level Fighters once they get that high of level. AC is the #1 defense against a lot of bad things beyond hit points (like touch ability drain, poison, disease, etc.).

KarinsDad said:

Looking in the Monster Manual for CR 15 encounters and their AC / chance to hit with best attack / average damage full round attack this fighter above would do to them:.....

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Problems here!

As you know, there are only 2 examples of CR 15s in the MM. Extrapolating that to *all* CR 15 creatures would be.......in error. Fro example, trying looking at the CR 15 creatures in other WotC products. Or, if you think these are all out of whack, look at the trend in the data just within the MM, starting at CR 10 and working up to CR 20. In any case, you'll see that the two CR 15 examples in the MM are _very_ atypical in AC, hp, and attacks.....not to mention DR and misc powers.

Laman Stahros said:

FYI, what you are talking about here is not "all according to the rules". You cannot become flatfooted in the middle of combat. Flatfooted only exists at the beginning of combat (as per the DMG).

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Has Hype said, this isn't always true. Balance checks can make someone flatfooted, and so can certain feats (the Low-Blow feat from Races of Faerun for one).

The other misconception is that losing your dex bonus is the same as being flat footed. This too is not always true. There are certain abilities and what not that can only take affect when someone is specifically flat-footed (but not when they simply lose their dex bonus w/o being flat footed). The OA Samurai's skill Iaijutsu Focus only applies to flat footed opponents.

Nail said:

Problems here!

As you know, there are only 2 examples of CR 15s in the MM. Extrapolating that to *all* CR 15 creatures would be.......in error. Fro example, trying looking at the CR 15 creatures in other WotC products. Or, if you think these are all out of whack, look at the trend in the data just within the MM, starting at CR 10 and working up to CR 20. In any case, you'll see that the two CR 15 examples in the MM are _very_ atypical in AC, hp, and attacks.....not to mention DR and misc powers.

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Fair enough. I am still evaluating the Warlock. He still seems pretty powerful, especially at lower levels (one 3D6 attack versus touch armor every round versus one normal attack by fighters that might do 10 points on average if it hits at 5th level).

He cannot be disarmed. His weapon cannot be sundered. He can even attack for serious damage while grappled. Silence spell does not bother him. He does not run out of ammo with ranged attacks. He can start using most magical items for other classes. Darkness and Devil's Sight combine are a fairly nice defense that can be achieved by 2nd level. And the rest of the Eldritch Essence Invocations are nothing to sneeze at.

All in all, most of the strengths of fighters (and sorcerers somewhat), and very few of the weaknesses.