Game problems that are really Player/DM problems

Quasqueton · Feb 23, 2005

Often in the discussion on the various aspects of D&D (whether D&D vs. other games, or D&D edition X vs. D&D edition Y), I see arguments made against D&D that are not really a problem with the aspect of D&D, but rather are problems with Players or DMs.

For instance, in the current debates over using minis in the game, several people complain that Players stop role playing their characters and start playing table-top tacticians, taking an inordinate amount of time chosing just the right path or action. This is not a problem with the minis, it is a problem with the Players.

And in other debates, some say that having social skills in D&D (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate) is bad. Players will say, "I bluff the guard," then roll the dice, rather than actually combining the roll and some role playing. But this is a problem with the Player, not the rules. [I am one of these problem Players, I admit.]

What are all the Player/DM problems that many people blame on the game or an aspect of the game?

Quasqueton

Arnwyn · Feb 23, 2005

I think I reject your original premise... so I can't help you much.

I do agree that part of the problems is the players/DM (they're the ones making the decision for themselves, after all), but certain tools also encourage certain actions and styles.

It's why different rules systems result in different ways to play the game (look at L5R's R&K vs. d20, for example).

WayneLigon · Feb 23, 2005

I have to agree. It's my opinion that most if not all problems with any RPG system are rooted in bad or incompetant GMing or players. Almost every incident (other than 'I had to stop because of RL time pressures') where I've spoken with a person who used to game and now does not, the root cause of them leaving the hobby is dissatisfaction with the game they were playing in, not the game itself.

Andre · Feb 24, 2005

arnwyn said:
I think I reject your original premise... so I can't help you much.

I do agree that part of the problems is the players/DM (they're the ones making the decision for themselves, after all), but certain tools also encourage certain actions and styles.

It's why different rules systems result in different ways to play the game (look at L5R's R&K vs. d20, for example).

Arnwyn, I agree completely.

Another example is the deadliness of combat. When FASA created the Star Trek rpg, one of their goals was to encourage problem-solving, not just fighting. So combat was very deadly - a near miss from a typical weapon (phaser, disruptor) would render any character unconscious. A solid hit might kill. Players quickly learned the hard way to use violence as the last (not first) resort. Or went back to D&D, where combat is a primary focus of the rules, and a lot of groups solve all problems with a greatsword.

The Horror · Feb 24, 2005

Quasqueton. Have you read Ron Edwards article "System Does Matter" over at the Forge? It gives a very quick and overly simplified overview of his opinions on why GM/Player/System incompatibilities arise. He expands on these ideas with several later essays, and I really do think they are all well worth the read.

Check it out. It might give you some insights on the entire thing.

The Horror

diaglo · Feb 24, 2005

in the examples you propose. i think you have players and GMs getting off on the wrong foot.

not communicating what they expect to get from the game they are playing.

example: the GM says: the sky is blue.

player 1 may not give a hoot and just ignore it.
player 2 may want more description of what shade of blue.
player 3 may want to argue that the sky is green.
and so on.

the players and the GM need to talk and figure out what each is hoping to get from the rule/edition/game/experience.

it grooves when everyone is on the same page.

Zappo · Feb 24, 2005

I for one agree with Quasqueton. In my direct experience, most players tend to carry their style around with the system.

When we started playing FASA Star Trek, where a weapon hit generally kills, do you know what happened? The players who solved things with combat in D&D, still solved things with combat. The main difference being that they maxed Initiative and Dodge before attack and damage.

When we started playing Storyteller, which is widely regarded as a roleplaying-heavy game, do you know what happened? The players who did diplomacy by rolling a Diplomacy check, still did. The main difference being that they rolled 10d10 instead of 1d20+13.

Do you know what really worked wonders for enhancing roleplaying and encouraging talking-before-fighting? First: telling the players that you are shooting for more roleplaying (gasp!). Second: creating situations where there is a good reason for talking - something better than "we risk losing a fight". Third: creating interesting NPCs with motivations and personality. And I didn't do this in Storyteller or BRP. I did it in D&D.

Besides, at least in our group, D&D 3.5E has the second highest mortality (the first being Stormbringer BRP which we pretty much stopped playing when we realized we were spending more time making characters than playing). So much for encouraging combat.

Numion · Feb 24, 2005

Zappo said:
I for one agree with Quasqueton. In my direct experience, most players tend to carry their style around with the system.

When we started playing FASA Star Trek, where a weapon hit generally kills, do you know what happened? The players who solved things with combat in D&D, still solved things with combat. The main difference being that they maxed Initiative and Dodge before attack and damage.

When we started playing Storyteller, which is widely regarded as a roleplaying-heavy game, do you know what happened? The players who did diplomacy by rolling a Diplomacy check, still did. The main difference being that they rolled 10d10 instead of 1d20+13.

Good points. In Cthulhu, for example, I noticed that the hack'n'slash players didn't learn from dead characters that violence is not the answer. They just came back with characters with 80% pistol skills and tried to do better next time.

Quasqueton · Feb 24, 2005

I think I reject your original premise... so I can't help you much.

Premise:

Often in the discussion on the various aspects of D&D (whether D&D vs. other games, or D&D edition X vs. D&D edition Y), I see arguments made against D&D that are not really a problem with the aspect of D&D, but rather are problems with Players or DMs.

So you've never seen a complaint about D&D (the game in general, or an edition in specific) that made you think, "Hey, that's not a problem with D&D, that's a problem with your Players/DM."?

"All PCs ever do in D&D is fight monsters and take their stuff. D&D is just hack and slash."

Is the above true about D&D, or is it probably a problem with the Players/DM?

"D&D combats take way too long. It takes us all game session to settle one combat against a band of ogres. Everyone tries to pick the best route for movement to avoid AoOs. Everyone has to decide on a combat maneuver or a spell for the absolute best result."

Is the above a truism about D&D, or an example of problematic Players?

"D&D is all about gathering hordes of treasure and magic. By 5th level, our PCs have a ton of magic items."

Is the above a standard aspect of D&D, or the sign of a bad (Monty Haul) DM?

This is my premise and point. I very often see complaints about D&D (and other games) that really come from experiences with bad Players/DMs, more than from the game itself.

Quasqueton. Have you read Ron Edwards article "System Does Matter" over at the Forge?

Give a link, and I'll check it out.

Quasqueton

fusangite · Feb 24, 2005

It's a spectrum. At one end are exclusively interpersonal dynamics problems. At the other are exclusively game mechanical problems. In between is a whole lot.

I'm inclined to disagree with arnwyn for the first time ever and say that when it comes to ENWorld posts, I see a lot more instances of interpersonal problems masquerading as mechanics problems than I do the reverse.

Game problems that are really Player/DM problems

Quasqueton

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Arnwyn

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WayneLigon

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Andre

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The Horror

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diaglo

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Zappo

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Numion

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Quasqueton

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fusangite

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