punkorange
First Post
I know kenzer got the rights and based hackmaster off of second edition, but how closely related are the two games in terms of crunch.
Pathfinder 2E Is the hackmaster game system 2nd edition?
- Thread starter punkorange
- Start date
The_Gunslinger658
First Post
Hi-
If you distill the sillyness, you will have a sort of 1E revised D&D game. Its also a very good and well written rules set too. I like it.
Scott
If you distill the sillyness, you will have a sort of 1E revised D&D game. Its also a very good and well written rules set too. I like it.
Scott
I've been running a HackMaster campaign for two years and ran 1e since the late 1970's, so I can give you a bit more detail on the similarities and differences. I have never run 2e, so I really can't speak to that. From my point of view HackMaster is 1e with the following additions:
1. Critical hits and fumbles.
2. A vastly improved skill system from the Oriental Adventures/Wilderness Survival Guide/Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.
3. Extending the honor system from Oriental Adventures to all character classes, and introducing effects for characters and monsters with optimal honor or dishonor.
4. Additional races, including the pixie fairy, gnomeling, and half-ogre.
5. Quirks and flaws to gain building points which can be used to purchase (among other things) . . .
6. Talents and packages.
The game also "tightens" several things by reverting to a straight 3d6 down the line system of character generation, but allows flexibility through the ability to adjust ability scores by spending building points.
The humor aspect is often given as a reason for not playing the game. While the "Gary-speak" style of the text, the "hacked" modules, and many of the monsters and spells are written in a tongue-in-cheek style, the game is very playable and can be deadly serious. Besides, 1e wasn't a 100% serious game either.
Topher
1. Critical hits and fumbles.
2. A vastly improved skill system from the Oriental Adventures/Wilderness Survival Guide/Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.
3. Extending the honor system from Oriental Adventures to all character classes, and introducing effects for characters and monsters with optimal honor or dishonor.
4. Additional races, including the pixie fairy, gnomeling, and half-ogre.
5. Quirks and flaws to gain building points which can be used to purchase (among other things) . . .
6. Talents and packages.
The game also "tightens" several things by reverting to a straight 3d6 down the line system of character generation, but allows flexibility through the ability to adjust ability scores by spending building points.
The humor aspect is often given as a reason for not playing the game. While the "Gary-speak" style of the text, the "hacked" modules, and many of the monsters and spells are written in a tongue-in-cheek style, the game is very playable and can be deadly serious. Besides, 1e wasn't a 100% serious game either.
Topher
Hackmaster is based upon 1e AD&D
First of, HackMaster is based upon the first edition of AD&D - not the second. It also includes some elements which seem to me to have been things which were discarded from OD&D, but I could be wrong about that. It's an officially licenced product, Kenzer & Company have a licence to use the AD&D intellectual property from Wizards of the Coast, but that license stipulates that the rulebooks must be somewhat parodic in nature
It has a very old-school feel to it, and as Topher has noted, it is not just a regurgitated version of 1e. It has something to bring to the table which is new. The crits system is awe-inspiring. If you're a DM/GM of any stripe, I urge you to read the material on crits and critical fumbles if nothing else. I would also urge you to read the chapter on Sidekicks, Proteges, Henchmen and other followers - that's something that the OOP editions of D&D used to focus on, but is not built into 3.5e D&D.
In Hackmaster, there is also a simple sytem called penetration, which basically means that on damage rolls, if you roll the max for that dice (ie: 8 on 1d8) it "penetrates" and you roll again, adding the result -1. To compensate for this, at first level, HPs recieve a 20hp "Kicker" - it may sound munchkinesque, but if it were not there, first level monsters and PCs would die intantaneously, a lot of the time, due to the somewhat higher level of damage that HackMaster characters and monsters do at low levels.
This tendancy evens out rapidly, of course, since HM goes by the hard-as-nails 1e progression tables, rather than the somewhat more rapid progression tables of 3.5e. Please don't think I'm flaming 3.5e D&D by stating this fact, it is not my opinion, it can be proved by referring to your books.
With regard to the quirks and flaws system, the way that works is that if a character takes on a "major physical flaw" for example, during character creation, they recieve a number of "build points" which they can use to increase their basic stats. The thing to bear in mind is that many of these flaws are potentially character-breaking, and it is the job of the GM to make sure that a player is forced to accurately role-play the defects that they have selected. It is not an open invitation to power-game.
Why would anyone take on the worst of these flaws, you ask? Because you get more building points for rolling percentile dice to determine which flaws you will possess. You can reroll, of course, but that costs building points. HackMaster character creation is an art form in its own right. It is also possible that certain injuries or spell effects may cause a character to recieve flaws in the course of a game. For example, a particularly severe crit may, in some cases, sever a limb, with the attendant penalties which the flaw in question carries.
How serious is the game? It's as serious as you make it. It's understood by the people I play with that silly jokes are not what we belly-up to the table for. Fortunately, most of the silliiness in the rulebooks is not the sort of thing that makes itself noticeable at the table, and we just leave out those rules. We play a serious (but fun) game of HackMaster. Jokes just don't come into it, really. It's a hardcore version of D&D, and that's why we like it.
First of, HackMaster is based upon the first edition of AD&D - not the second. It also includes some elements which seem to me to have been things which were discarded from OD&D, but I could be wrong about that. It's an officially licenced product, Kenzer & Company have a licence to use the AD&D intellectual property from Wizards of the Coast, but that license stipulates that the rulebooks must be somewhat parodic in nature
It has a very old-school feel to it, and as Topher has noted, it is not just a regurgitated version of 1e. It has something to bring to the table which is new. The crits system is awe-inspiring. If you're a DM/GM of any stripe, I urge you to read the material on crits and critical fumbles if nothing else. I would also urge you to read the chapter on Sidekicks, Proteges, Henchmen and other followers - that's something that the OOP editions of D&D used to focus on, but is not built into 3.5e D&D.
In Hackmaster, there is also a simple sytem called penetration, which basically means that on damage rolls, if you roll the max for that dice (ie: 8 on 1d8) it "penetrates" and you roll again, adding the result -1. To compensate for this, at first level, HPs recieve a 20hp "Kicker" - it may sound munchkinesque, but if it were not there, first level monsters and PCs would die intantaneously, a lot of the time, due to the somewhat higher level of damage that HackMaster characters and monsters do at low levels.
This tendancy evens out rapidly, of course, since HM goes by the hard-as-nails 1e progression tables, rather than the somewhat more rapid progression tables of 3.5e. Please don't think I'm flaming 3.5e D&D by stating this fact, it is not my opinion, it can be proved by referring to your books.
With regard to the quirks and flaws system, the way that works is that if a character takes on a "major physical flaw" for example, during character creation, they recieve a number of "build points" which they can use to increase their basic stats. The thing to bear in mind is that many of these flaws are potentially character-breaking, and it is the job of the GM to make sure that a player is forced to accurately role-play the defects that they have selected. It is not an open invitation to power-game.
Why would anyone take on the worst of these flaws, you ask? Because you get more building points for rolling percentile dice to determine which flaws you will possess. You can reroll, of course, but that costs building points. HackMaster character creation is an art form in its own right. It is also possible that certain injuries or spell effects may cause a character to recieve flaws in the course of a game. For example, a particularly severe crit may, in some cases, sever a limb, with the attendant penalties which the flaw in question carries.
How serious is the game? It's as serious as you make it. It's understood by the people I play with that silly jokes are not what we belly-up to the table for. Fortunately, most of the silliiness in the rulebooks is not the sort of thing that makes itself noticeable at the table, and we just leave out those rules. We play a serious (but fun) game of HackMaster. Jokes just don't come into it, really. It's a hardcore version of D&D, and that's why we like it.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Well, gee, a couple of well-spoken HM defenders show up and cover the answers better than I could. Good to see. Hope you guys stick around.
EDIT: By the way, I feel the humor is an important element of HM, even if it isn't manifested at one's table. What it does is emphasize that HM is, in the end, a game, and is meant for fun. Much as I like 3e/d20, too often the rulebooks read like tech manuals. HM's books are fun to read, and set the mood for the game. Plus, the HM GM shield is simply the best game accessory I've ever seen.
EDIT: By the way, I feel the humor is an important element of HM, even if it isn't manifested at one's table. What it does is emphasize that HM is, in the end, a game, and is meant for fun. Much as I like 3e/d20, too often the rulebooks read like tech manuals. HM's books are fun to read, and set the mood for the game. Plus, the HM GM shield is simply the best game accessory I've ever seen.
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I've been registered for months. My initial impression was that this forumed seems to be more 3e/3.5e centric, , and I'm only a player in one 3e campaign. My primary interest is in the OOP editions, and HackMaster. I'm familiar with you from Dragon's Foot, of course. You'll probably see my posts there more often than you will here, but I'll add this to my places to visit regularly.ColonelHardisson said:
I can agree with your comments about the humour, and even some of the humour manifests itself at table. I'm just very selective about what I will include myself. For example, the HackMaster version of ToEE features a magic sword from the original module which has been "humourously" renamed. I didn't like the new name, so I'm using the original name. The new name, and I hesitate to say it, since there may be players listening, is an example of the sort of "humour" that I do not find entertaining. It's not a bad name, I just prefer the original.
I would like to amplify your comments about the GM Screen, too. The GM screen is a marvel. Those of you GMs reading this who are used to TSR/WoTC/Whoever's Sceens, you ain't seen nothing yet. It has a complex system of fold-out panels which contain almost every piece of information you are ever likely to need in game, and it must have (I haven't counted, nor even used them all yet) over 16 pages of information. It is a work of genius.
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