Mounted Cleave

Bront · Jun 13, 2005

MOUNTED CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack, 5 Ranks Ride skill
Benefit: If you gain an oppertunity to cleave while charging on a mount, you may instead continue your charge into another opponent in line with your current charge. This attack is considered a charge in every respect, and all feats and bonuses involved in the charge work as normal (Spirited Charge, Ride-by Attack, Lance charging damage bonus, etc.). You may not excede your normal movement restrictions on a charge. You can use this ability as often as you may normaly cleave (once with normal cleave, as many times as otherwise legaly available with Great Cleave).
Special: A fighter may select Mounted Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Example: Sir Joe is charges a goblin 20' on his horse, and kills it with his attack. He may continue to charge the second goblin 10' directly in line of his charge. If the goblin was 40' behind the first one, he could not charge since he would be moving farther than his allowable charge distance. Likewise, he could not charge a goblin that would require him to change the direction of his charge.

Obviously, in order to get cleave, you need all the other prereqs, same with Ride-by attack. (Note, have been added)

I think it works well, it's not easy to get (you need 4 feats, the ride skill, and a str of 13 to qualify for it in the first place), and it gives a charging mounted warrior an opertunity to use cleave, which is likely somethink that they don't get too often otherwise.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Aust Diamondew · Jun 13, 2005

Looks pretty good.
Just to nitpick add all the prereqs to description.

You might want to consider upping the strength, BAB or ride prerequsites.
Another issue to consider is if I'm using spirited charge or have a lance (or both) do I do double damage on all cleave attempts or just my first attack?

Bront · Jun 13, 2005

Double on all, since it's still a charge. I should clear that up though. I will up the ride Req.

nimisgod · Jun 13, 2005

I approve this feat as is.

Knight Otu · Jun 13, 2005

As do I.

azmodean · Jun 13, 2005

My only objection is that it raises the maximum number of targets (without using reach or various speed enhancements) from 7 to around 54. (Heavy warhorse, move 50, so a 100' charge. Must use at least 10' of charge before first target, so 90'. Best case is charging into enemies that are packed in ranks, one every 5'. For every 5' of travel you could reach 3 enemies, so for 90' of charge that's 54 enemies. See "diagram" below.) With some munching out you could raise the potential number of targets to around 270(light warhorse, horseshoes of speed or haste spell, reach weapon), but it's over the top at around 50, or even around 20.

e = enemy

Code:

     eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
you  eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
     eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Bront · Jun 13, 2005

azmodean said:
My only objection is that it raises the maximum number of targets (without using reach or various speed enhancements) from 7 to around 54. (Heavy warhorse, move 50, so a 100' charge. Must use at least 10' of charge before first target, so 90'. Best case is charging into enemies that are packed in ranks, one every 5'. For every 5' of travel you could reach 3 enemies, so for 90' of charge that's 54 enemies. See "diagram" below.) With some munching out you could raise the potential number of targets to around 270(light warhorse, horseshoes of speed or haste spell, reach weapon), but it's over the top at around 50, or even around 20.

e = enemy

Code:

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee you eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

No, because the second you attack a goblin not in line with the first one, you are no longer using the feat, nor were you charging, so you can't use it. On top of that, you need at that point 6 feats to accomplish this, or to even hit more than one. (Str 13+, Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Ride-by attack, 5 Ranks Ride skill, Great Cleave, BAB+4, Mounted Cleave).

Since you can only charge in a straight line, you couldn't attack other goblins that are not in that line, so at most, you could only attack maybe two of those lines, not all three (if they were on a diagonal, but your movement is somewhat restricted then. Using a reach weapon to attack outside of that line is against the charge rules.

Of course, you are also assuming that you are hitting, and killing, each target in a single blow.

Normaly, with all of the above feats sans mounted cleave, you'd only get 1 attack as a charge, and possibly several more without a charge (I believe by my count, 10, one has to not be there so you can charge, and one is dead with the charge, but it could be more) if they are lined up for him to do so. (In a nice square package with a hole in it). But, again, we're assuming you're hitting and killing each opponent. Sure, possable with a goblin at the level you get these feats, but not likely with most other higher level opponents.

And, yes, you could twink our your horse to move so fast you can move 160 in a charge, and therefore get 15 of them, but that's if there are 15 in a straight line. In the above example, someone could just as easy take them all out with a lightning bolt, in fact, far easier if they're goblins, only one action and possibly not even die-roll dependant, and a wider effect. Allowing a fighter to have a chance to do something similar once (he probably won't get that many in a row, at least in that combat, again) doesn't seem to be overtly powerful.

I guess I could draw an example and write it out to make it clear, and I do understand and appreciate your concerns.

Velmont · Jun 13, 2005

I think a bit like Bront. The feat tell "in line", so I would go only for one line, which make 18 for your example. But it is really unlikely to see that. I would tell you it is more likely to see a gang up on the big figther and seeing 8 goblin around him, using 7 time the feat rather than seeing a nice line.

I think the feat is nice, and even if a bit more powerfull than Cleave, the occasion to use it will be less frequent and the feat is harder to get.

azmodean · Jun 14, 2005

I agree that if you are restricted to attacking enemies on the "line" created by your charge, then it is significantly better. It's just significantly more complicated to specify which targets are valid. I guess the phrase "in line with your current charge" does it, but it just didn't seem obvious to me when I read the feat.

Bront · Jun 14, 2005

azmodean said:
I agree that if you are restricted to attacking enemies on the "line" created by your charge, then it is significantly better. It's just significantly more complicated to specify which targets are valid. I guess the phrase "in line with your current charge" does it, but it just didn't seem obvious to me when I read the feat.

Its limited by the definition of a charge too. You have to charge in the most direct path available, in a straight line towards your opponent. So, unless you have some ability to redirect your charge, it's pretty strict about where you can charge and who you can attack with a charge, and at this point, you've already determined a direction.

The big problem is that since this is online, maps and formations are sometimes hard to imagine and deal with. However, that should effectively limit the feat a bit more as well. And obviously a GM has a bit of leway as to what's "In Line" with a charge.

Again, I do appreciate your input. If you feel there is a better wording, or if an example is needed, I'll get that setup.

One more vote needed for aproval