Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

The Shaman

First Post
ColonelHardisson said:
I don't know about percentages, but given that WotC stands head and shoulders above every other RPG publisher in terms of earnings - orders of magnitude more successful, and also given that D&D is their main d20 product (d20 Modern is not as successful), it strikes me that D&D is, indeed, really successful.
I know they're moving a lot of product, but consider that I bought both 3.0 and 3.5 and now actually play neither, I'm much more interested in market share than units sold. Has D&D really moved beyond its audience from before 3.0 was introduced.
 

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ColonelHardisson said:
It must be. No other game company ever tried such extensive research before. Given 3e's success, maybe more should.
1) "Extensive" research doesn't count for much if it isn't done properly. Research that borders on social experimentation is one of the most difficult types of research to formulate properly, with product assessment being one of the easiest (in other words, organizing research where people look at a product and say why they think it looks better in blue than in pink is a lot easier than trying to recreate a complex social situation and get reliable results.)

2) Most of WotC's research is what's known as quantitative, which is the most common and most easily controlled type of research. Putting people in a room and asking them to recreate a social situation while you time them is known as qualitative research and is the most difficult to pull off properly. The much-referred to survey that gathered information on rpg use versus other games (among other things) is quantitative and has nothing to do with the focus groups Ryan first mentioned.

3) Most of WotC's research (that they've made public, anyway) is about rpgs in general and is not about 3e. This shows in the game. I think d20 is great, but there's nothing revolutionary about it except for the OGL. That has absolutely nothing to do with the game mechanics inside. And this ties right into point 4 ...

4) Make no mistake that 3e's popularity is largely attributed to two things a) the biggest case of brand recognition existing in the industry and b) the OGL. The kind of research Ryan is talking about in relation to this thread--that of game mechanic and design--has nothing to do with either of those factors.

Never confuse research brand tailoring and product design. The two types of research MUST be conducted under different conditions, in seperate trials, in order to be considered reliable because they necessarily approach the same product from two distinctly different perspectives.

I do, however, agree with you that the industry would benefit a hell of a lot from some good market research. Market research is, however, prohibitively expensive to everyone in the industry except the top two or maybe even three companies in industry. Proper research will easily eat the budget of a nice sized book that is given a print run sized in the expectation of good sales.

For example, a single focus group room runs about $1000 (minimum) for just an afternoon or morning at a reputable facility. Want it for the whole day? Well, let's tack on an extra $500, bringing it to $1500 USD/day.

Now you need to pay for recruiting. Cold calling people and asking for role-players is going to be a tough recruit, but we'll still conservatively price it at $60 a recruit. We could tack on advertising budget to try and get some gamers to call in to see if they qualify, but we'll keep it simple.

To get a good idea of the market, let's cover the following age ranges: 14 to 17, 18 to 24, 25 to 34 and 35+. Again, to keep things simple, we'll not worry about education, income, etc. and go for a wide spread. We cannot, however, dismiss gender. Because most gamers are male we'll only make one group all females to stir things up a bit. The rest will be an all male group and a gender mixed group for each age range, bringing us to a total of 8 focus groups, each at the industry standard of 2 hours in length.

We'll also go for a typical group size, recruiting 12 people per group for 10 to show (meaning we over recruit so we have backups as there are typically no shows and we want to get as many full groups as possible.) 8 groups x 12 people (yes, you still have to pay the people who are sent home as overflow) means 96 people need to be recruited for the study.

Now we need to pay our people their incentive for coming to the focus groups. We'll use the industry standard of $50 a person for 2 hours of their time. 96 x $50 is $4800 in incentives. These 96 people also cost 96 x $60 to recruit, coming to $5760.

We could cram all 8 groups in a single day, but we'll go with what most research companies do for such a work load and spread it over 2 evening's (cramming it in can bias the results because the observers can become overloaded and bored, skewing what they perceive.) At
$1000 an evening, that now comes to $2000 for the room. The cost of the room typically includes the hostess, on-site rescreening of the recruiting data, taping, etc.

Now there are also going to be incidentals. Researchers rarely want to have their respondents come in pissed off, and they don't starve their observers, so we'll tack on a conservative estimate of an additional $500/day for food, drinks, snacks, etc. for a total of $1000.

Okay, let's look at the numbers here, keeping in mind I'm using typical costs and not accounting for problems, such as tough recruiting (which may account for a necessary increase in the incentive, paying more per recruit, etc.) I'm also being very generous with the amount of groups; considering that because this reserach doesn't happen regularly there should definately be more groups to get good data a good researcher would try for more than just the 8 groups. They'd also try and spread them out geographically to see if the data varies from different parts of the country (well, the world because rpgs are a global product.) But, as I said, we're being generous here.

The total cost for our generously devised, hypothetical market research is $13,560. I think you can see why most rpg companies don't run focus groups.

Now, a stint of quantitative research can be done much cheaper -- mailing out and/or cold calling surveys generally costs less per respondent, but because the individual results aren't as telling and suffer from greater limitations a lot more people have to be contacted for useful results. You'd also have a hard time using such a study for gathering anything other than hard, cold statistical data, so comparing rules heavy to rules lite in pretty much any terms other than "which do you prefer" or "how often do you play rules heavy as opposed to lite" is almost entirely out of the question.
 
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The Shaman said:
I know they're moving a lot of product, but consider that I bought both 3.0 and 3.5 and now actually play neither, I'm much more interested in market share than units sold. Has D&D really moved beyond its audience from before 3.0 was introduced.
d20 in general is the industry's largest group market share. Considering most people who play d20 merely shrug their shoulders, say "meh, why not?" and purchase the core books rather than printing the SRD and making up the holes, assuming the brand name DnD has a good hold on the market is a safe bet.
 
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Staffan

Legend
The Shaman said:
Is 3e really that successful?

I'm not talking d20 generally, but third edition D&D specifically. What is the percentage of gamers out there playing D&D? I have a figure of 60% dating back to just before 3e was introduced - what is a current figure?
I don't have any hard data. What I do have is a lot of people online who have said things like "I used to play AD&D, but I stopped for whatever reason and started playing other games instead. When they released 3rd ed, I started playing again," and the variant "I have played AD&D for a long time, but I didn't buy the 2nd ed stuff, but I did buy the 3rd ed stuff and converted." I seriously doubt that D&D has lost market share with the release of 3e.
 

The Shaman

First Post
Staffan said:
I seriously doubt that D&D has lost market share with the release of 3e.
I don't think it's lost market share either - I'm just wondering how it relates presently to that 60% figure from before 3.0 hit the shelves. I'm guessing that it's gone up, but by how much I'm curious to know.
Steve Conan Trustrum said:
Considering most people who play d20 merely shrug their shoulders, say "meh, why not?" and purchase the core books rather than printing the SRD and making up the holes, assuming the brand name DnD has a good hold on the market is a safe bet.
Agreed - but I want numbers! Give me numbers! :)
 


WizarDru said:
Is it really in WotC's best interest to share those numbers, even if they had them?
It really depends on what the numbers say. It can very easily work in the company's favor to provide numbers stating they are the biggest boy on the block and why. However, the numbers better be gathered and presented properly (or at least in such a way so that Average Joe won't notice anything amiss.) For example, while everyone is probably familiar with the survey results that WotC has previously released and will accept that data as fed to them, as someone in the business of market research I looked at the presented data and shook my head because concerns over their data gathering, analysis, and conclusions were jumping out at me in neon light.

So, it's not just about the data you release to the public but how you spin it.
 

Turjan

Explorer
Charles Ryan dropped the number of a 75% market share for the RPG alone (not including minis and other side sales) last year, saying that this number came from a market research company that operated on their behalf. He added that he assumed that the numbers were slightly on the optimistic side ;).
 

eyebeams

Explorer
Turjan said:
Charles Ryan dropped the number of a 75% market share for the RPG alone (not including minis and other side sales) last year, saying that this number came from a market research company that operated on their behalf. He added that he assumed that the numbers were slightly on the optimistic side ;).

As far as I know, the only sources that claim that WotC has a marketshare of over 50% come from . . . WotC. The estimates I trust normally put them in the 45-50% range.
 

You have to keep in mind that how this information is gathered is sample polling rather than complete polling. This means that they aren't calling every gamer and getting the information (and boy wouldn't THAT be fun!) Instead, they call around to gamers and/or shops and take information from a small sample of the demographics they are surveying. They then take that data and say "well, we got 2000 replies and we figure there are probably 2,000,000 gamers in the US, so that means every reply will account for the trends of 1000 people' (that's a simplification of the process, but it gives you an idea.) Obviously, the larger the sample the more accurate your results--surveying two people and saying they each represent 1,000,000 people in the relevant market, for example, is not going to yield accurate data.

This is, of course, assuming all demographics are equal. Polling urban centers alone willl yield inaccurate results, as will only polling one part of the country. Budget also skews results because you may not spend the money on getting the sample you need, so you make do with what you can get. There are any number of things that can cause similar problems and,unfortunately, the client's employees in charge of research almost always don't understand those issues.

For example, I once fielded a project for one of North America's largest automotive manufacturers. I was managing the call centre at the time and was also in charge of how the call sample was acquired and fielded. The people heading up the project for the client simply didn't understand why we could easily fill their quota of mini-vans and SUVs when calling suburban areas but were having a hell of a time finding truck owners in those same areas. Likewise, when caliing numbers in the farmlands they didn't know why we could easily find people who owned trucks but were having a hard time finding people intending to buy compacts. I spent many hours trying to explain to these people--people who, working for the manufacturer, let alone their research department, should know this stuff--why fewer people own heavy-duty pickup trucks in the suburbs and why compacts/minis aren't common in the farmlands. These people were then responsible for taking the data we gathered and analysing it to prepare the report for their bosses. As you can imagine, these people likely drew a lot of false conclusions from the raw data and presented them as fact. This is pretty common in big companies because, as Ryan did, the people doing the analysis aren't experienced or trained enough with regards to research to recognize problems with their methodology.

EDIT: It's also worth nothing that you cannot make ANY accurate, statistical conclusions from qualitative research, such as Ryan conducted with the stop wathes. Why? Because you can't draw statistics from non-standardized surveying. His experiment was not standardized because each group consisted of different people being exposed to changing stimuli that wasn't the same for the other groups (in other words, the things the other participants said and did wasn't exactly the same for all the groups.) You can only draw accurate statistical conclusions from quantitative data where the questions are all standardized and not open-ended. (In other words, people are presenting you with facts and not opinions.) The only stats you can draw from qualitative work is that directly related to those groups, such as "4 out of 5 of the people in our 8 pm group didn't like X" but that data does not then transfer over to the general populace. It can only be used by the observers to make guesstimations.
 
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