The future of Juxtaposition - PreVote Discussion

Juxtaposition has been a setting in the ISRP area for over 5 years, and in that time many have come to love or hate it. It is with a conflicted heart that I announce that Juxtaposition is being removed as a standard setting for ISRP. The reasons are many, and irrelevant to this discussion.

The setting information will remain in skeleton form on the ISRP webpages to serve as a reference guide for characters, occasional adventures and potential theme nights in Limbo.

A new setting will be voted on to replace Juxta. The new setting will incorporate a marketplace similar theme. This will allow us to keep FG with no modifications (aside from his updated menu which shall premier with the new chat software). In the new setting ISRP WizO's will not serve as law enforcement, though may retain mentor status through staff positions or guild associations and responsibilities of that nature.

What I would like to do is present the options that the ISRP team has discussed, weighed and found to be in line with Wizards of the Coast's and the WizO's needs and goals. They do not remain exclusive and this is your opportunity to discuss the benefits, pros and cons of them with each other as well as present other options for our consideration. Along those lines I have presented some guidelines and a starting place. Ultimately, I'll review the discussion and make a final decision before presenting the vote.

The discussion will end Saturday May 28th.

Options:

*Integrate the marketplace with Greyhawk. This could entail either placing them in the same area of Greyhawk, or two separate areas of Greyhawk to make them more distinct.
Pros:
One fantasy setting for ISRP.
Simple, easy, and the default setting for DnD
Cons:
This may conflict and/or make difficult the Greyhawk setting modifications which we will present for vote and discussion shortly. An overview for planning purposes is that the Greyhawk setting would become a more setting enforced area, while the second fantasy area would be more of a true freeform with a greater range in character options and powers.

*Eberron.
Pros:
Showcases a relatively new setting.
Has a quickly growing fanbase on the internet.
We would be one of the first to offer IC opportunities to play it. Additionally it is not completely mapped out and we would have more opportunity to establish ourselves within it.
Plenty of material available and forthcoming.
New so people can start at the beginning
Cons:
Technology may be an issue, unless we are looking to have one low technology (Greyhawk), one medium and one high technology (TMP) setting.

*Forgotten Realms.
Pros:
Highly popular.
Simple, easy, and everyone knows it.
Cons:
Always changing, very magic heavy setting (though magic heavy could be a bonus for a wide range freeform room)

*Homebrew - If we went this route it would be as TMP was, created heavily by the patrons, which would require a lot of participation and help. So if you want to vote on this, please be prepared to contribute or your mileage will vary.
Pros:
Patrons would have more control over setting modifications
Simple, adaptable, no worrying about rules lawyers/etc
Cons:
Creation could take some time which might cause a conflict for timing with the new chat software release. We would want the patrons to be highly involved, which is not always what the patrons may want.
Might not be as in-depth as a current published setting.
People trying to take over the setting ala TMP, people complaining lack of material, lot of work to start

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Potentials:
Planescape. I know several patrons suggested Sigil before and I'm willing to entertain this further provided good pros and few cons are present.
Sigil Pros:
* Infinite possibilities for visitors (ala Juxta)
* Was a very popular setting at one stage
* Does have a lot of source material floating around and not many competitors
* The setting adapts itself and changes constantly
*Infinite possibility, allows easy explanation for our "weird" patrons, by nature adapts
* Explains all the weird beings better, and many of the regulars have at least some notion of Sigil
Sigil Cons:
* Setting is semi-oppressive and has some rules people are likely to complain about (like no worshipping)
* Lot of people are likely to see it as a new skin on Juxta
* Sigil has a lot of factions that take notice/influence, running all that would be part of the setting and could be tedious
* Hard to explain, rather "strict" setting, no real authority figures besides the Lady of Pain.
* With those that actually play the setting, spill-over to the CRT (which is still bound to happen), if the proposed changes to strengthen the "normal" Greyhawk campaign setting go through, will look even odder.

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Things I am vetoing and why:
* Dragonlance and Spelljammer. I feel they are outdated. The settings are highly variable depending on which version you go by and individual interpretation. I would like to see settings that allow the most flexibility in character types, power levels, and regions of origin. This will better compliment the changes proposed for Greyhawk.
* Dark Sun (discontinued, hard to explain, player hostile, barely remembered)
* Al Qadim (I love Arabian Nights... but this really isn't going to be un to run as a room)
* Anything on an outerplane such as Celestia, The Abyss, etc
* Ravenloft as the setting is now the intellectual property of White Wolf.
* Moving the CRT again. I am far too hesitant to further disrupt what is an icon of history for the ISRP area.

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Some items to consider when selecting a setting:
* Setting needs to be "stable", no one which is likely to suddenly undergo a random overhaul in the near future, a new cataclysm etc
* Setting needs to be in a defined period (preferably current) so as to avoid problems like we've had with people claiming which Gods are alive, which Gods are dead and which Gods do not exist yet.
* Setting needs to be close enough to a stereotype we can explain it to people in one short paragraph and they'll understand the basic groundwork. Part of the problem with Juxta was you didn't know what you could and couldn't do until you read a twenty page manual on the house rules of the setting.
* Setting needs to be character friendly, at least where the room is set. We want people to want to go there willingly and with ease, not turn up to be attacked/oppressed by the world itself.
* For our proposal of one strict setting and one relaxed setting to work the new setting needs to have a large range of suitable character types and powers, and allow for them to appear mainstream.

If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to post them here or e-mail myself at adele@wizo.wizards.com. Please help to spread the word among your friends. I realize the message boards are not as frequented as we like and I'd like to see this important changeover and those pending, be considered and weighed in on by the majority - not minority - of our patron base.


WizO_Adele
ISRP Area Lead

There's a lot of pro's and cons going for each, and whilst I'll be dreadfully sad to see Juxta getting the boot, so to speak, I'll have to say that I personally, am leaning in the favour of Forgotten Realms. It is highly accessible AND a lot of the patrons that 'find' the CRT are already FR based in origin, so why not give them their own setting? I've read enough about Eberron to think that whilst it does have a good setting, it seems to lack in storyline potential, for me, personally, and ISRP is about the story, not the kick in the door.

As for the outer planes: lets face it, Rajak turning up on Celestia and bursting into flames again, fun as it may be, might not go down so well

So yes, FR is what I'd say to pick.

Heavily leaning towards FR - which, I'm sure, isn't particularly surprising to those that know my setting tastes, hehe..

As a highly magical setting, and one of the most fleshed out, understanding and participating in it is far easier than any of the other choices - Greyhawk being the only contender, but it seems that FR has gotten a great deal more attention throughout 3 and 3.5 Ed.

-Homebrew presents the same difficulties that Juxta had..

-Eberron, as amusing as it is, is still unfamiliar to most players. 'Sides, it'll be getting it's limelight with DDO on the horizon.

-Greyhawk, while eliminating the difficulty of having two settings, would just be tossing another room to the setting. The Garden gets barely any use, it seems, and I imagine the 'Roads'll just get the extra crowding. And as Bhryn said, there's a healthy population of Faerunian characters that have this bad habit of falling through portals to the 'Roads or Juxta.
If Greyhawk gets strict enforcement, as well, a large majority of the character base will be alienated. I can log into the 'Roads at any given point in the day, and at least half the room doesn't belong there.

WizO_Adele said:

* Setting needs to be "stable", no one which is likely to suddenly undergo a random overhaul in the near future, a new cataclysm etc

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Greyhawk is stable. FR has settled down - relatively - in the current timeline

* Setting needs to be in a defined period (preferably current) so as to avoid problems like we've had with people claiming which Gods are alive, which Gods are dead and which Gods do not exist yet.

Click to expand...

There's no supposed future for the Realms, and the history of Gods and the Godschildren is fleshy. Current timeline FR works fine.

* Setting needs to be close enough to a stereotype we can explain it to people in one short paragraph and they'll understand the basic groundwork. Part of the problem with Juxta was you didn't know what you could and couldn't do until you read a twenty page manual on the house rules of the setting.

Click to expand...

Not homebrew, not a problem

* Setting needs to be character friendly, at least where the room is set. We want people to want to go there willingly and with ease, not turn up to be attacked/oppressed by the world itself.

Click to expand...

Magic-heavy, diverse population.. a merchant square in one of the larger cities or some of the more relaxed areas could accept just about anyone.

* For our proposal of one strict setting and one relaxed setting to work the new setting needs to have a large range of suitable character types and powers, and allow for them to appear mainstream.

Click to expand...

Same as above. The only setting that would accept a wider range would be Planescape - Sigil itself - but that's essentially revamping Juxtaposition and tossing in some hardcore guildage. The only difficulty in presenting FR in this regard would be the ever-popular demons, devils, and undead.. but that's true most places.

My vote is also for FR, since lots of the characters already played in ISRP are displaced Faerunians. We've been asking for an FR chat room for years, and were always told that there wasn't enough player interest to warrant creating an entirely new room for us, but with this new turn of events, it's entirely feasible.

There will be an actual poll opened up on the boards once the discussion period is over. So don't forget you'll need to check back and vote in the actual poll.

I would place my vote anywhere but Faerûn, personally. I've never really liked the setting for any purpose other than its sheer accessibility. I think it has been overdone for the most part. That's just my opinion, and try as many have to persuade me otherwise, I'm sticking to it.

However...

WizO_Adele said:

Planescape. I know several patrons suggested Sigil before and I'm willing to entertain this further provided good pros and few cons are present.
Sigil Pros:
* Infinite possibilities for visitors (ala Juxta)
* Was a very popular setting at one stage
* Does have a lot of source material floating around and not many competitors
* The setting adapts itself and changes constantly
*Infinite possibility, allows easy explanation for our "weird" patrons, by nature adapts
* Explains all the weird beings better, and many of the regulars have at least some notion of Sigil

Click to expand...

As one of the posters who has suggested this, I would place my vote with Sigil/Planescape, personally. Aside from what is listed above, this may even provide a draw to bring some new players to the ISRP due to the very devoted fan base Planescape possesses. Players familiar with the 'default' planes presented in D&D 3e-3.5e would be familiar with the planar system, as would veterans of 2e, without alienating players of characters from home-brewed worlds. I know that personally, this would be a rather large incentive for me to get more actively involved in the chats again as I am admittedly not a true fan of the current settings used.

Sigil Cons:
* Setting is semi-oppressive and has some rules people are likely to complain about (like no worshipping)

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As this only really applies to the Lady of Pain (to my knowledge), I don't see this as a major flaw. Sigil has a great number of temples, and divine casters function normally there. Only gods themselves (and greater planar beings such as demon princes and other arch-outsiders) are prohibited from entering Sigilspace. Short of genuinely deific beings and near-deific beings, there isn't as much restriction on character concepts as would first appear, and considering the problems that characters of that sort have created in the past (though primarily a matter of taste), that may not be such a bad thing.

* Lot of people are likely to see it as a new skin on Juxta

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I think this would depend on how it is presented. If the emphasis on the traditional setting is made clear enough and the flavor of Planescape is incorporated, I think this could be avoided.

* Sigil has a lot of factions that take notice/influence, running all that would be part of the setting and could be tedious
* Hard to explain, rather "strict" setting, no real authority figures besides the Lady of Pain.

Click to expand...

Both true, but I think that with the right approach these could mitigated to a neutral effect, if not turned into a positive through player management. The Lady's will being as fickle as it can be (and as rare as it can be) may be a strong suit for a slightly more relaxed environment, as She has permitted a great number of events to take place that would never occur otherwise. The major problems would be in line with what is already pursued: mass-scale property destruction would get someone evicted from Sigil-space (if they're lucky), smaller-scale matters could be handled by having the Dabus (re: alter-egos for the WizOs in this paradigm, perhaps?) issue rebus (cryptic glowing runes that convey their message rather than vocal words) warnings (IC) when the situation calls for it. Regardless, the Lady's will is a rarely imposed thing, as such matters are usually averted before they could come to pass, in other words, anyone that could succeed in wanton destruction of Sigil is either doomed to fail from the beginning (if allowed to progress such things within Sigil), or never permitted to pass in the first place.

We could even convert The Arena into The Hive, and send combatants into the run-down and crime-ridden alleyways of the lower-class regions of Sigil for players to take out their hostilities.

The Factions would be slightly trickier since I think they would require player activity to keep the groups in motion and jockeying for position in the power-center of Sigil, but again, with the right approach, it could work.

* With those that actually play the setting, spill-over to the CRT (which is still bound to happen), if the proposed changes to strengthen the "normal" Greyhawk campaign setting go through, will look even odder.

Click to expand...

This is probably one of the larger benefits of Sigil in my opinion. Sigil is based in the Great Wheel cosmology, the same one used in Oerth. It would provide a much stronger bond between the outer planes/inner planes/transitive planes, and between the two rooms since important figures and places would have direct correlations.

As for the concerns:
Sigil is very much stable as the Lady keeps it that way. While it is morphic in that events can bring about change, there is no chance of a catastrophic purge of the demiplane. (*shoves the Die Vecna, Die module under the couch with the termites* )

The defined period is easy enough, as Planescape's cosmology can be assumed to be in line with Oerth's.

I think Planescape can summed up as this: A psuedo-industrialist take on the junction of several multiverses, the apex of neutrality where beings from all extremes can meet on even ground. The City of Doors where all things are possible, and yet a certain global safety-net stands on the horizon to ensure the safety of the whole, without losing the sense that a single portion could still be lost.

There's plenty of room for character-friendly placement, especially considering that an upper class marketplace is quite closeby to the Hive Ward, if I recall correctly, separated by a stone wall. This could provide a place where characters from all backgrounds could come together, the upper-class and affluent, and the low-down street-thieves.

And lastly, settings don't get much more diverse than Sigil. Beings from all planes can and do arrive there constantly, be they mortal or outsider. The only things that get cut down are divine-entities such as gods and archfiends/archcelestials/slaad-lords/etc..., which as I mentioned, shouldn't be that huge of a problem. Anything can be mainstream there, because there is access to everywhere.

There is no need for another setting in Greyhawk, as we already have the tavern. Eberron would be kind of nice, though most know little about it. I personally have started reading the handbook and the novels and am slowly coming around to the place. I have never liked Greyhawk, but thats just a personal thing. As stated before, most chars are from Toril, and would provide a good base for the characters to actually exist in the other realms. I would suggest keep the portal based emporium as it is, just located in Faerun.

As much as I would like to put my hand in for FR, I think Sigil might be the better choice given the types of ISRP characters there are out there. Besides, we already have the CRT existing on a prime material plane.

Since all my favorite worlds are vetoed... like DL, DS, RL...

I think that merging the tavern and the marketplace would be the best idea.

As it is, a good number of the players tend to mix the settings and rules anyhow, not bothering if the two areas are seperate or not. Since so many seem to think the two areas are one in the same, it would then make a bit of sense to merge them into one.

Just a thought.

Gah I forgot what name I had.. it's Dontella here.. hehe.. sorry

I'm just going to throw my two cents in here:

My first vote goes for Sigil, as I too have thrown the idea out there purely because Wizards has always and will always attract a wide variety of characters - and it's one setting where it really does fit. Personally it really does bug me to find creatures in Greyhawk that really shouldn't be there. So if Greyhawk is made a more strict setting - and remains like that, then Sigil would be a viable option. Otherwise we'll see exactly what we get now, with characters spilling over from one setting to the other - which is fine with some, but doesn't quite work out with the more... 'exotic' character concepts. Buuut I believe Tharivious went into enough details about this one.

As for the factions, well perhaps they would work if certain players or even WizOs chose to lead them and 'recruit' members, almost like how the Adepts are currently run, but that would depend entirely upon them.


However, Toril would be my second vote - it's the setting that's incredibly popular and anyone that's ever read a forgotten realms book will at least know something of it. And as been stated before, there are many, many player characters that originate from it and it's very, very easy to find information about.


As for merging two Greyhawk locations, I'm not so keen - we have two rooms in that setting and I rarely see the Garden being used, I really don't see how adding in another location would help the CRT overcrowding at all save for clearing up the people portal hopping from the Tavern right to the Emporium as at least the two settings would be somewhat related. Plus, the extreme diversity of the characters really wouldn't fit.

Hmmm, rambles...

I use the word "really" far too much.