Overcoming 'True Seeing'

Zimbel16 said:

Finally, just stay 121' away

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Thanks! That is actually the best answer to my original post!!!!!

Thanks again,
Rich

As a DM, I rule that Nondetection has the potential to stop True Seeing, but Mind Blank doesn't, because:
1) There is ambiguity in there; "such as" strongly implies an open list, not an exhaustive one - it is, by definition, a DM call as to what is and is not ultimately on that list.
2) I don't particularly care for the "ultimate" spells, for which there is no real counter with what they do, short of attacking the spell/character directly, such as is the case with True Seeing and Mind Blank.
3) The opposed roll mechanic of Nondetection means that neither side has certain victory, and that's better for a game that relies heavily on chance.
4) Mind Blank, on the other hand, would make for inpenetrable stealth, were it to apply to True Seeing and See Invisibilty - which is something to avoid; it makes certain types of plots and encounters essentially impossible past a certain point. On the flip side, if there was no ready counter to True Seeing/See Invisibility, that also makes certain types of plots and encounters essentially imposible past a certain point. Both I prefer to avoid. A chancy protection/counter, such as Nondetection, is basically perfect for my purposes as a DM.

Nondetection doesn't work against True Seeing because allowing it to do so doesn't make sense. True Seeing isn't really a magical form of sight -- it doesn't let you see something that would be impossible to see if magic didn't exist, a la Scrying or Clairvoyance. It does the opposite -- it *undoes* a particular kind of magic that *prevents* you from seeing something. (If I had my druthers it'd be Abjuration rather than Divination school, but whatever.)

I also don't care for the endless one-up-manship of spells. It's neater and simpler to have some spells that simply do what they do, period, rather than constantly jumping up levels to have one spell that can undo this and another spell that can undo that, forever. It's nice to have spells like True Seeing, Mind Blank, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Dimensional Anchor, etc. that simply *work*.

Why hasn't anyone suggested "Antimagic Field"?

No magic effect can cross it, so even True Sight would not function within it (granted.. your own effects won't function either, but that wasn't asked for )

Taraxia said:

Nondetection doesn't work against True Seeing because allowing it to do so doesn't make sense. True Seeing isn't really a magical form of sight -- it doesn't let you see something that would be impossible to see if magic didn't exist, a la Scrying or Clairvoyance. It does the opposite -- it *undoes* a particular kind of magic that *prevents* you from seeing something. (If I had my druthers it'd be Abjuration rather than Divination school, but whatever.)

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I do not follow your logic. If it undoes the magic, it would undo it for everyone there. Since it only undoes the magic for the creature with it up, it must be a form of divinational magical sight, specific to that creature.

True Seeing is a divination that shows exact locations of creatures in the area.

Nondetection prevents divinations from working against a given target (if the roll is failed).

This seems pretty straight forward.

The argument has always boiled down to which type of divination magic is stopped by Nondetection and Mind Blank, but the spells themselves do not limit it. It is always an interpretation of the spells which says "this spell works this way". In the case of Nondetection, the "such as" clause is used as an all inclusive clause as opposed to what the phrase "such as" really means: examples. In the case of Mind Blank, the phrase "information gathering by divination spells or effects" is often limited to mental information, even though the spell does not state that.

False Sensory Input
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 3
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 5

You have a limited ability to falsify one of the subject’s senses. The subject thinks she sees, hears, smells, tastes, or feels something other than what her senses actually report. You can’t create a sensation where none exists, nor make the subject completely oblivious to a sensation, but you can replace the specifics of one sensation with different specifics. For instance, you could make a human look like a dwarf (or one human look like another specific human), a closed door look like it is open, a vat of acid smell like rose water, a parrot look like a bookend, stale rations taste like fresh fruit, a light pat feel like a dagger thrust, a scream sound like the howling wind, and so on.

You can switch between senses you falsify round by round. You can’t alter the size of an object by more than 50% by using this power. Thus, you couldn’t make a castle look like a hovel, but you could make it look like a different castle, or a rough hillock of approximately the same size. If this power is used to distract an enemy manifester who is attempting to use his powers, the enemy must make a Concentration check as if being grappling or pinned.

Because you override a victim’s senses, you can fool a victim who is using true seeing or some other method of gathering information, assuming you know that the victim is actively using such an effect and you can maintain concentration.

Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.

that help?

Plot-Device said:

False Sensory Input
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 3
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 5

You have a limited ability to falsify one of the subject’s senses. The subject thinks she sees, hears, smells, tastes, or feels something other than what her senses actually report. You can’t create a sensation where none exists, nor make the subject completely oblivious to a sensation, but you can replace the specifics of one sensation with different specifics. For instance, you could make a human look like a dwarf (or one human look like another specific human), a closed door look like it is open, a vat of acid smell like rose water, a parrot look like a bookend, stale rations taste like fresh fruit, a light pat feel like a dagger thrust, a scream sound like the howling wind, and so on.

You can switch between senses you falsify round by round. You can’t alter the size of an object by more than 50% by using this power. Thus, you couldn’t make a castle look like a hovel, but you could make it look like a different castle, or a rough hillock of approximately the same size. If this power is used to distract an enemy manifester who is attempting to use his powers, the enemy must make a Concentration check as if being grappling or pinned.

Because you override a victim’s senses, you can fool a victim who is using true seeing or some other method of gathering information, assuming you know that the victim is actively using such an effect and you can maintain concentration.

Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.

that help?

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Yes, thanks Matt!

In Dragon Magazine #337 there is a Sidebar in the article about Eberron's Lords of Dust. This sidebar lists a spell called Cloak of Khyber that specifically states it trumps True Seeing.

Hope this helps a little,

J from Three Haligonians

True Seeing, that penultimate divination spell that foils dopplegangers, demons, dragons, illusions, and deceptions. It is the bane of DM deviousness. That doesn't stop me from having BBEGs use it against the PCs, though. What's good for the goose...

How To Foil True Seeing:

1. Unique spell: Anti-Magic Wall
2. Programmed Illusion: Have everything look like it actually is. PCs detect the illusion, use True Seeing... and everything is exactly the same. Now they start wondering how you fooled True Sight.
3. Mind Blank, depending on your rulings of how the spell works.
4. Hordes of duplicates of the item/person. Simulacrum, mass polymorph effects, and the like are great for this.
5. Mundane disguises are not penetrated/revealed by True Seeing.
6. Hide skill.
7. Magical Blindness.
8. Modified Ioun Stone: Detects and zaps anyone who uses True Sight within a 300' radius. That tells the archers who to focus their poisoned flaming shocking acidic sonic arrows on.
9. Wall of Force (blocks line of effect).
10. Wall of Iron/Stone/Ice.
11. Flesh to Stone. Drawback: It allows a save.
12. Prismatic wall/sphere.
13. A full company of Death Knights (make them actual Knights, from the PHBII, or Knight/Warlocks) following the PC in the ethereal, waiting to pounce on him when he detects them.
14. Invisible summoned creature following the caster around. Whenever he starts to cast/use an item with True Sight, hit with a targetted Greater Dispel. Creature's next action is to, hopefully, teleport away while everyone's suffering from surprise.
15. Curses. Lots of them. Along the lines of: True Seeing will still work, but some aspect of what is viewed will show up as false. For example: The farmer over by the butcher's shop appears, under True Seeing, as a balor.
16. Long-term spells: The potential target of the spell casts a unique spell on the PC. The spell sits until the PC casts/uses True Sight. Then the spell detonates, causing 1d4 hp/level (save for 1/2) in a 5' radius. Caster has to make a concentration check now. At the very least, the caster/item user has now drawn lots of attention to himself. "I cast True See-BOOM!!!" Make sure the spell is built according to the normal rules, and that the NPC has it in his/her spellbooks - for the PCs to find or hear about once they get wise to it.
17. National laws against using spells like this. Summoned elementals, epic spells, city magic items outline the caster/user with a brilliant, scintillating glow. A disembodied voice repeatedly announces, "Attention!! You have made illegal use of unauthorized divination magics! Remain where you are until the authorities arrive!" Don't you just love Lawful nations with a long history of powerful wizards and clerics?
18. A familiar with a ring of counterspells, a high Spellcraft skill, and a readied action.
19. Wish/Miracle: I Wish that all attempts to use True Seeing on me automatically fail. Very subject to DM interpretation.
20. The BBEG sends spies after the PCs, all equipped with True Sight, detect magic, analyze dweomer, and high Spellcraft skills. They are under orders and equipped to retreat (via teleport, gate, skills, etc.) if spotted. Then, after gathering up all the info available, follow up with assassins who are now outfitted and buffed against the PCs specifically, and attack in overwhelming numbers when the party is split, or someone goes off by their lonesome. Strongly recommend that you reserve this only for highly intelligent, high-level BBEGs -- the sort who are campaign-climax battles.

Hope this helps.

merelycompetent said:

18. A familiar with a ring of counterspells, a high Spellcraft skill, and a readied action.

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This will not work. A ring of counterspells does not give the wearer the ability to counter spells, it gives the wearer the ability to counter a specific spell which is cast at the wearer. True Seeing is not cast at a target (i.e. the wearer of the ring), it is cast on the creature touched by the caster of True Seeing.


Now, a Ring of Spell Storing could be used in this manner (if the DM allows casting the spell to include altering the casting for counterspelling), but that's a 50,000 GP ring which makes this a non-viable tactic until at least level 15 or so (unless it is an overall party chip in the money for the ring tactic in which case it could be done a few levels lower).