"Try Castles & Crusades", they say. But no one's playing it!

After reading WilltheChased's post about "getting back to basics", etc., I have to say, I share some of his frustration. D&D 3.5 has burned me out completely, so much so that I stopped RPGing altogether for about six months; I'm back now and already chomping at the bit to resume.

But I continue to struggle with many things:

(1) Players with no life other than D&D who are like little weenie encyclopedias, while players like myself, who have a life other than D&D, simply don't have the time or energy to memorize every obscure rule and supplement . . .

(2) As DM, not getting overwhelmed by the options and rules available, even in the PHB (not to mention the fifty million other supplements).

(3) Trying to encourage players not to constantly ask, "When do we level up? More KEWL POWRZ DOODE!"

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Yeah, I know. "It's a player problem, not a game problem," or "We had the same problems back with AD&D 1e", or "That isn't what it's like in my group!" The stock responses are only helpful the first time you've heard them.

It never fails, though, that when someone discusses their struggles with D&D 3.5, they are told to try another game, often Castles & Crusades.

The problem with that advice, though, is that D&D 3.5 is the game everyone wants to play. Obviously, there are exceptions, but for the most part, D&D 3.5 is the 800 lb. gorilla for a reason. It doesn't matter how great Castles & Crusades (or any other game) is if you end up playing it by yourself.

Argh. Frustrating.

Well, it is a another version of the player problem. If you can't convince them to try a new game, it's not the games fault. C&C is trying to expand like all other games, but players don't embrace it as readily as other would hope. So, you have to find a way to sell it better or find people that are buying. No one said gaming was easy.

All of the "try Castles and Crusades" advice is predicated on one understanding:

1) YOU buy it, and familairize yourself with it.
2) YOU convince your players it's worth trying.
3) YOU either pre-gen or help them pre-gen characters, step by step, using the one copy of your book.
4) YOU Gamemaster the game, to demo to them.

Step 1's a given, but a lot of people take those other three steps for granted. It also assumes your players are as burned out as you are, or that they're amenable to change. Some are, some aren't. But if you feel it's worth the effort, it really is a good way to go, IF you can hook your players.

I agree, sometimes players just AREN'T amenable. But the real question is: Which is more of a priority for you: DMing a game that's burning you out, or simply not playing or finding another group if you can?

My suggestion is: level with your players, tell them you want to try something different. If that doesn't work, ask someone else to try DMing and you'll give them as much support as you can. If no one wants to DM, suggest that you can't, and what other group activities will they prefer? There's nothing like laying it on the table to spur movement in some direction.

Crothian said:

Well, it is a another version of the player problem. If you can't convince them to try a new game, it's not the games fault. C&C is trying to expand like all other games, but players don't embrace it as readily as other would hope. So, you have to find a way to sell it better or find people that are buying. No one said gaming was easy.

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That's been my problem. Try convincing my gaming group to play anything other than 3.5? Heresy!!!

I always hear a lot of Castles & Crusades promoting on this message board, but I don't hear much about it at my FLGS or among the dozens of members of my University gaming club, but then again I don't hear much about Spycraft or M&M which have big followings here, but I hear a lot about d20 Modern, Star Wars, and WoD, which don't have as big of followings here.

One big problem you'll have with getting people to play C&C is that it is a niche. Not everybody wants pseudo-1st edition/retro D&D. On a lark once, I pointed out the C&C book on our FLGS shelf to some other gamers I knew the looked at it, flipped through it, and wondered what the big deal was. I feel confident in saying that most players in the D&D/d20 community are pretty content with 3.x for their fantasy needs. If you don't want it too complicated, stick to the core, which is simple enough for many players. Selling C&C to the typical D&D gamer is going to be a hard sell, because they are happy with what they have and don't see a need for, and no need to give up options they like and features they are happy with.

The "retro" appeal of C&C is lost on people who never played the game you're trying to evoke nostalgia for. Remember that 3e came out 6 years ago now, that means a lot of younger gamers have only ever played 3rd edition. Some might have started on 2nd Edition, but from what I've seen, they never turned back.

Many gamers are only going to have time in their week for one or two games, and playing a non-D&D fantasy d20 game instead of D&D is going to be a tough sell. In my experience, most gamers want their first game to be something reliable, something they know they'll enjoy, and if they have time for a second game they might get a little experimental.

If you want to have fun with C&C, go right ahead and I hope you get a group and have a lot of fun, but realize that simplified retro pseudo-D&D is a niche market and you will have trouble recruiting gamers for that.

I agree, sometimes players just AREN'T amenable.

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Many players just aren't amenable to anything outside of D&D- that describes everyone in my 2 current (and most of my last several) game groups over the past decade except me and one other player. We're all buddies, so its all good, but it does grate on me from time to time.

I always hear a lot of Castles & Crusades promoting on this message board, but I don't hear much about it at my FLGS or among the dozens of members of my University gaming club, but then again I don't hear much about Spycraft or M&M which have big followings here, but I hear a lot about d20 Modern, Star Wars, and WoD, which don't have as big of followings here.

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I've never even seen a copy of C&C here in Dallas/FW, but I do own something from all of those others you mentioned, and I shop around- Lone Star Comics (8 locations), Generation X, Game Chest, Game Wyrd, and anyplace I stumble upon that has games.

In other words, it may be a good game, but it has poor market penetration.

I was lucky enough to pick up two C&C PHBs for $5 each at Dragon*Con. I figure this is the only way I'll be able to talk my group into playing the game, as they really wouldn't want to shell out $20 for another rules-system.

castles and crusades

We tried Castle and Crusades for a while. I both DM'd and played several sessions. While as a DM, I really..really..really liked the prep time and the ability to pick up a 1st ed module and run it with little conversion, as a player I found it lacking. Just not enough options in the combat portions of the game.

What I've enjoyed of late is 3.5 that has been scaled back a bit...kinda the reverse of all the additional house rules from 1st edition. Instead of adding stuff, we've taken bits and pieces out altogether or replaced them with simplier rules. Start small. If you are having trouble with a bit, take it out. When someone screams 'un-balanced', ask them just to try it for a few sessions and see if they are still having fun.

I've been to four FLGS in the past four weeks, as well as some larger chain bookstores that have a lot of RPGs (relatively speaking), and I have never seen a C&C rulebook.

To paraphrase one of my players reaction to Castles & Crusades, when I explained the concept to him: "Why would we want to play that when we can real D&D?"

("Real D&D" being 3.5.)