Shield bashing Goliath and large shield spikes

FoxWander · Dec 2, 2006

Does the goliath's powerful build ability to use weapons one size category larger than themselves allow them to use a large-sized spiked shield for a shield bash?

There are two schools of thought on this in my gaming group:
1) Powerful build does not allow you to use armor a size larger than you are. Shields are "armor" therefore- no large spiked shield.

2) Per the SRD, "Used this way, a [light/heavy] shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon." As a "weapon", powerful build applies, therefore- large spiked shield is good to go.

The DM, when presented with the goliath shield and waraxe wielding character concept, initially ruled towards position one. Since we didn't know a rules source either way, that's what we went with. If the DM likes it that way, this is a moot point and not a very big deal anyway- the character's fighting style still works, just not as damaging as he envisioned it. But the DM is fairly open to the RAW changing his initial rulings as long as it's not 'rules lawyering' during the game AND the relevant rules on the issue are both balanced and obviously meant to work contrary to his initial ruling.

So, is having powerful build allow "large" shield bash attacks balanced? Is it the best way to interpret how 'shield bash = weapon' and powerful build should work together? Are there any rules we're overlooking on this? Any help or advice would be appreciated.

frankthedm · Dec 2, 2006

FoxWander said:
Does the goliath's powerful build ability to use weapons one size category larger than themselves allow them to use a large-sized spiked shield for a shield bash?

There are two schools of thought on this in my gaming group:
1) Powerful build does not allow you to use armor a size larger than you are. Shields are "armor" therefore- no large spiked shield.

2) Per the SRD, "Used this way, a [light/heavy] shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon." As a "weapon", powerful build applies, therefore- large spiked shield is good to go.

The DM, when presented with the goliath shield and waraxe wielding character concept, initially ruled towards position one. Since we didn't know a rules source either way, that's what we went with. If the DM likes it that way, this is a moot point and not a very big deal anyway- the character's fighting style still works, just not as damaging as he envisioned it. But the DM is fairly open to the RAW changing his initial rulings as long as it's not 'rules lawyering' during the game AND the relevant rules on the issue are both balanced and obviously meant to work contrary to his initial ruling.

So, is having powerful build allow "large" shield bash attacks balanced? Is it the best way to interpret how 'shield bash = weapon' and powerful build should work together? Are there any rules we're overlooking on this? Any help or advice would be appreciated.

The spike's damage is factor of the shields size. Option 1. You might by the RAW have the right to carry a large spiked heavy shield to use as a weapon, though you could not claim it for AC.

If i allowed races with the "large when i wanna be" powerful build, I'd think shield bashing with a tower shield would be the equivalent of a "large spiked heavy shield".

geosapient · Dec 2, 2006

The shield is held or strapped to the arm. Though it is technically armor I think that powerful build should apply to a shield since it is more arm strength and not actually body size that matters with them.

frankthedm · Dec 2, 2006

geosapient said:
The shield is held or strapped to the arm. Though it is technically armor I think that powerful build should apply to a shield since it is more arm strength and not actually body size that matters with them.

Arm strength is STR which determins the damage bonus. The damge die is determined by the size of the shield. Powerful build does not effect the armor you wield. It might be reasonable to allow the character to get larger spikes aplied to his medium shield. The character might even be able to use a large heavy sheild as a weapon to shield bash with, though he could not claim AC from that shield. I think the happiest medium is to allow a powerful build character to shield bash with a tower shield.

This is powerful build...

geosapient · Dec 2, 2006

Out of curiosity... Would you allow powerful build to work with improvised weapons?

As an example;

Two humans walk into a bar (duh duh ching), one is just your average warrior type (Joe Fighter) and his brother - not so average (Bubba Fighter). He has powerful build.

As with any bar scene, a brawl breaks out. In the corner of the bar are 3 barrels. 2 of them are smaller barrels about 2' tall and about 18" at the base. One barrel stands about 3' high and 27" at the base. Assuming that Joe could pick up and smash a smaller barrel over the head of someone in the bar would you allow Bubba to make use of his powerful build to do the same with the larger barrel (assuming that the larger barrels weight was within his load)?

As far as the picture goes, none of them are using shields. Are we just to assume that if they were using shields that they would be of normal size? Or would the shields look like they belong to the person a massive / powerful build?

frankthedm · Dec 2, 2006

geosapient said:
Out of curiosity... Would you allow powerful build to work with improvised weapons?

Did i not suggest allowing those with powerful build to shield bash with a tower shield?

If an ogre or frost giant could wield the barrel as an improvised weapon is there a reason you think that a medium creature with powerful build could not?

As far as the picture goes, none of them are using shields. Are we just to assume that if they were using shields that they would be of normal size? Or would the shields look like they belong to the person a massive / powerful build?

The picture shows what powerful build does for you. Powerfull build does not affect your armor and it does not increase any damage dice. It also shows how the ability looks.

geosapient · Dec 2, 2006

frankthedm said:
Did i not suggest allowing those with powerful build to shield bash with a tower shield?

I guess a tower shield 'could' be a large large shield.

frankthedm said:
If an ogre or frost giant could wield the barrel as an improvised weapon is there a reason you think that a medium creature with powerful build could not?

The point of that was that if a barrel which normally isn't a weapon could be used as a weapon and affected by powerful build, then a shield which normally isn't a weapon should also be affected by powerful build (although, I really should have diferrentiated between a normal barrel and a normal barrel for a large creature instead of 2 barrels of different sizes likely for the same race).

frankthedm said:
The picture shows what powerful build does for you. Powerfull build does not affect your armor and it does not increase any damage dice. It also shows how the ability looks.

Powerful Build itself doesn't increase damage dice but the ability to use a weapon of a larger size does.

Marshall · Dec 3, 2006

Uh, IS there a penalty, to AC, for weilding an oversized shield?
IIRC, a Large Hvy Shield will still give a medium character +2AC.

geosapient · Dec 3, 2006

Marshall said:
Uh, IS there a penalty, to AC, for weilding an oversized shield?
IIRC, a Large Hvy Shield will still give a medium character +2AC.

If allowed as an oversized weapon it would only have either double or quadruple weight (every 5 lbs. = -1 armor check penaly)

FoxWander · Dec 3, 2006

After reading the replies and thinking about it, here's how I think it works. Yes, a goliath can use an oversized shield (spiked or not) to bash with. In a shield bash it's a martial weapon and powerful build clearly allows use of weapons one size bigger than you without penalty. BUT, as a protective item it is inappropriately sized for a medium character. Since powerful build doesn't apply to oversized armor/shields (used as shields), the shield should probably apply a -2 penalty on attacks just as using an inappropriately sized weapon would.

In this case, Franks ruling to have powerful build allow bashing with TOWER shields is actually quite generous. Since an oversized light/heavy shield would seem like it should apply the same penalty to attacks as a tower shield but without the AC bonus.

Or you could suspend disbelief completely and allow oversized light/heavy shield bashes without a corresponding penalty to attacks OR bonus to AC because of the shield's size. So you'd get the higher damage die of bashing with a big, honkin' shield, BUT it's big, honkin-ness doesn't improve your AC nor does it encumber you anymore than it's weight alone does.

Personally, I think Frank's tower shield ruling makes more sense, although the penalty to attack makes a dual-wielding shield and weapon combo pretty hard to pull off.

By the way...

geosapient said:
If allowed as an oversized weapon it would only have either double or quadruple weight (every 5 lbs. = -1 armor check penalty)

First- one size category bigger (all that powerful build allows) would only double the weight.
Second- where does the "every 5 lbs. = -1 armor check penalty" bit come from?