D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

Nifft said:

Yep, martial adept prestige classes count as +1 initiator level for all of your initiator levels. So a Swordsage 4 / Warblade 4 would have martial initiator level of ss6/wb6, but a SS 4 / WB 4 / Diamond Duelist 10 would have initaitor levels of ss16/wb16.

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Sweet. I am so gonna write up a diamond duelist for my game....

It's a prereq for the Core duelist, so I left that in. Seems like a flavor choice, though I could see it working well for a gladiator type, or a multi-class Bard/Warblade. Otherwise, consider it a "screw you" type prereq, like the way Toughness is usually used.

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However, the duelist only needs 3 ranks which means you can still get in at 6th level cross-class. 4 ranks Perform bumps that up to 8th, which is relatively high for prereq purposes.

Besides Perform fits the duelist niche more if you consider it to represent a more swashbucker-y type character. Diamond duelist seems designed more as an iaijutsu duelist or the types of swordsmen seen in wuxia, where flowery speeches aren't so much in vogue. Intimidate would seem a more appropriate skill, especially given the new duel of wills mechanic in Bo9S.

hong said:

Besides Perform fits the duelist niche more if you consider it to represent a more swashbucker-y type character. Diamond duelist seems designed more as an iaijutsu duelist or the types of swordsmen seen in wuxia, where flowery speeches aren't so much in vogue. Intimidate would seem a more appropriate skill, especially given the new duel of wills mechanic in Bo9S.

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Diamond Mind allows you to sub Concentration for Intimidate, and I see no need to encourage a Diamond Mind specialist to take Concentration ... it will be maxed out already.

Skilled Wuxia warriors should be masters of the five virtues too, no? I'd probably accept Craft (calligraphy) instead. But you're right about the ranks, which I'll fix. In my original version, it was a Duelist who mixed Fighter and Rogue, so perhaps I was thinking of a Bard/Warblade or Rogue/Swordsage having plenty of ranks, but there's no need to force multi-classing here.

Thanks, -- N

EDIT: 4 skill ranks is half of 8 skill ranks. Easily attained by 5th level. Exactly as easily, in fact.

Nifft said:

Venom Guard -- Jade Viper, Counter (Su)
Level: 1

Whenever you are about to ingest poison, you can expend this maneuver to avoid ingesting it. Alternately, you can use it to gain a +4 bonus on one Fort save vs. poison.

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What do you mean? If someone drops poison in your mouth, it doesn't work?

Nifft said:

Predatory Presence -- Jade Viper, Stance (Su) [Mind-Affecting, Fear]
Level: 3
Prereqs: 1
Range: 10 ft.

Foes suffer a -4 penalty to Will saves.

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No range, area, or anything of the like? I think it'd be better as "Whenever any action of yours prompts a Will save from a target, that save is made with a -4 penalty."

Nifft said:

Long Viper Bite -- Jade Viper, Strike (Su)
Level: 5
Prereqs: 1

Your neck extends like a giant snake uncoiling. You gain the ability to make a single bite attack at 30 ft. range, though you do not threaten that range. If you do not have a bite attack this round, you cannot use this maneuver.

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Since the standard way of doing this requires both a boost and a strike, it seems weak. Suggestions: make it ignore partial cover, or go the Japanese route and let it count the target as flanked.

Nifft said:

Fearsome Attack -- Jade Viper, Strike (Su) [Mind-Affecting, Fear]
Level: 6
Prereqs: 3

As part of this maneuver, you charge an opponent. If your charge attack hits, you deal an extra +8d6 damage, and all foes within 30 ft. must make a Will save (DC 16 + Int) or be Shaken for 1 round.

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Of course, the damage rose, but the same status, lasting less? Shouldn't it be a better one?

Nifft said:

Jade Viper Hand -- Jade Viper, Strike (Su) [Summoning]
Level: 7
Prereqs: 3

You summon five advanced (Large) vipers to attack an adjacent foe for 3 rounds. The vipers appear in your opponent's square and initiates a grapple if they succeed on a bite attack (as though they had the Improved Grab special ability).

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Large vipers don't advance by standard, so you'd have to say how many HDs they have. Also, the pasting let "initiates" in the references to more than one snake.

Nifft said:

Jade Constrictor -- Jade Viper (Su) [Polymorph]
Level: 8
Prereqs: 3
Action: Standard

You take the form of a Huge constrictor snake. If you take more damage in a round than you have Intimidate ranks, you immediately revert to your normal form (ending this maneuver).

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Isn't it too little? I'd suggest multiplying the damage threshold.

Flamewarrior said:

What do you mean? If someone drops poison in your mouth, it doesn't work?

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I'd expect it to come up more often if someone was attempting to poison you by putting poison in your food or drink, but if you have rules for dropping poison in someone's mouth while they aren't helpless, then yes -- it would avoid that too.

Flamewarrior said:

No range, area, or anything of the like? I think it'd be better as "Whenever any action of yours prompts a Will save from a target, that save is made with a -4 penalty."

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Range is 10 ft. -- it's in the text you quoted, no?

Flamewarrior said:

Since the standard way of doing this requires both a boost and a strike, it seems weak.

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It is weak for normal humans. I'm thinking that troglodytes, Warforged with the Bite feat and those variant Kobolds who have a bite attack might enjoy it, though.

Flamewarrior said:

Of course, the damage rose, but the same status, lasting less? Shouldn't it be a better one?

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This one inspires fear in a 30 ft. radius, while the other inspires it only in the target you strike. However, increasing the fear to Frightened is a good idea.

Flamewarrior said:

Large vipers don't advance by standard, so you'd have to say how many HDs they have. Also, the pasting let "initiates" in the references to more than one snake.

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Of course. Thanks! Just regular Large vipers is what I meant.

Flamewarrior said:

Isn't it too little? I'd suggest multiplying the damage threshold.

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I'm not really sure what to do about this one. I'd like to have a "turn into a giant snake" maneuver, and most recent fiction has people turning back into their normal forms when they are damaged (and not "mortal wound" kinda damage, but "bruised face" kinda damage).

I think there are enough ways to get temporary HP and to use Stone Dragon DR-granting strikes (and to use a Crusader's delayed damage pool) that you can avoid a lot of damage, if that's your concern. If you were in Reaper's Stance (from this same school) and you made sure to crush a mook every round, you'd have a buffer equal to twice your Intimidate ranks before you were auto-reverted. Adding in the DR from some of the better Stone Dragon strikes, and I don't think you'll have that much trouble -- but you will have to dedicate some resources.

Does that make sense?

Thanks, -- N

Sorry for the oversights.

Nifft said:

I'd expect it to come up more often if someone was attempting to poison you by putting poison in your food or drink, but if you have rules for dropping poison in someone's mouth while they aren't helpless, then yes -- it would avoid that too.

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So, it'd be better to say "whenever you're about to eat/drink", simply because you probably wouldn't know about the poison and worry about consuming the food nevertheless.

Nifft said:

It is weak for normal humans. I'm thinking that troglodytes, Warforged with the Bite feat and those variant Kobolds who have a bite attack might enjoy it, though.

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Yes, but since you'd have to be in charging distance to use it, maybe it could use some extra benefit.

Nifft said:

I think there are enough ways to get temporary HP and to use Stone Dragon DR-granting strikes (and to use a Crusader's delayed damage pool) that you can avoid a lot of damage, if that's your concern. If you were in Reaper's Stance (from this same school) and you made sure to crush a mook every round, you'd have a buffer equal to twice your Intimidate ranks before you were auto-reverted. Adding in the DR from some of the better Stone Dragon strikes, and I don't think you'll have that much trouble -- but you will have to dedicate some resources.

Does that make sense?

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Of course, but: I didn't think about the crusader because I didn't expect it to be able to switch a discipline for Jade Viper; and, adding reaper's stance and the best Stone Dragon DR source (I forgot the name), you'd be able to take up to 65 points of damage at level 20; so, either you'd be a crusader, which I didn't think about, or you pull off somthing else (which couldn't be DR), because 20d6 (for example) averages 70. By the way, magic also ignores DR. Also, gaining good DR from Stone Dragon requires attacking once per round which is bad, and lowers the chances of you dropping a guy/round.

Flamewarrior said:

Sorry for the oversights.

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No worries! I greatly appreciate the help.

Flamewarrior said:

Of course, but: I didn't think about the crusader because I didn't expect it to be able to switch a discipline for Jade Viper; and, adding reaper's stance and the best Stone Dragon DR source (I forgot the name), you'd be able to take up to 65 points of damage at level 20; so, either you'd be a crusader, which I didn't think about, or you pull off somthing else (which couldn't be DR), because 20d6 (for example) averages 70. By the way, magic also ignores DR. Also, gaining good DR from Stone Dragon requires attacking once per round which is bad, and lowers the chances of you dropping a guy/round.

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You could always take Crusader for four levels before taking two levels of Swordsage, and then going into Martial Assassin... but whatever. I'm probably erring on the side of weakness for this maneuver.

I want the maneuver to have some reason why you'd turn back when you take damage. Hmm... how about a carrot instead of a stick?

"If you would take damage due to an attack, you can dismiss this maneuver (and revert to your normal shape) as an Immediate action. Place yourself in any square formerly occupied by your Huge snake shape. If the attack couldn't reach you in this location, the attack is negated."

Thanks, -- N

PS: Write-ups now up for Jade Viper and Crescent Moon! Including fixes and clarifications from earlier feedback.

Nifft said:

Diamond Mind allows you to sub Concentration for Intimidate, and I see no need to encourage a Diamond Mind specialist to take Concentration ... it will be maxed out already.

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If they have that feat. But not every Diamond Mind specialist will have that feat.

Actually, just make that feat the prereq instead of the skill ranks! I still don't see how Perform is relevant to this particular class.

hong said:

If they have that feat. But not every Diamond Mind specialist will have that feat.

Actually, just make that feat the prereq instead of the skill ranks! I still don't see how Perform is relevant to this particular class.

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That would work. Unnerving Calm isn't particularly broken (nor is the Tactical feat for which it is a prereq).

Thanks, -- N

I'd even say Unnerving Calm is on the weak side. Duels of wills only give a minor benefit, and while UC lets you twink out Concentration even more, whether it's worth giving up a precious feat slot is debatable.