I Must Be Missing Something on Bard's Suggestion

airwalkrr · Feb 20, 2007

The description of the bard's suggestion ability implies that there is no limit on the ability. It does not count towards his limit of bardic music uses per day and it does not state that the ability cannot be used more than once on any given target. So am I reading this right or is there something I am missing. If I am correct, then what is the point of mass suggestion really when a bard can just keep making suggestions to each creature he has fascinated until they all fail their saving throws?

Thanee · Feb 20, 2007

Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect.

Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances.

Looks right.

Well, it's not an ability that is easy to use, since you must have the target fascinated already, which limits its usefulness a lot.

Bye
Thanee

airwalkrr · Feb 20, 2007

Fascinating a creature is actually fairly easy. It is not difficult to max out your Perform skill. Items like circlet of persuasion and choker of eloquence plus Skill Focus (Perform) make for a save DC practically impossible to pass. The only complication arises when you face creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities. I admit that is a drawback, but that is a drawback of the suggestion spell as well, and most people seem to think it is fine as a spell. It just seems pointless to allow a save if the bard can use the ability over and over again until the target rolls that natural 1. It also makes mass suggestion pretty pointless as an ability. If the wording stated a bard may only attempt one suggestion per fascinate attempt, it would make more sense.

Victim · Feb 20, 2007

Fascinate doesn't work in and around combat. Suggestions do.

Sound of Azure · Feb 20, 2007

airwalkrr said:
Fascinating a creature is actually fairly easy. It is not difficult to max out your Perform skill. Items like circlet of persuasion and choker of eloquence plus Skill Focus (Perform) make for a save DC practically impossible to pass. The only complication arises when you face creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities. I admit that is a drawback, but that is a drawback of the suggestion spell as well, and most people seem to think it is fine as a spell. It just seems pointless to allow a save if the bard can use the ability over and over again until the target rolls that natural 1. It also makes mass suggestion pretty pointless as an ability. If the wording stated a bard may only attempt one suggestion per fascinate attempt, it would make more sense.

Pointless? Maybe. It's more expedient though, one might think. They don't stay fascinated forever, after all.

Thanee · Feb 20, 2007

airwalkrr said:
Fascinating a creature is actually fairly easy.

There are a lot of limitations...

Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working.

...

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

It only really works in a fairly friendly environment...

Bye
Thanee

Arkhandus · Feb 20, 2007

Something that may or may not apply....

3.0 PHB (don't have a 3.5 copy to check right now, these passages may be the same in that version too though), page 152, "Special Spell Effects," section on "Attacks" (bold emphasis mine)

Some spells refer to attacking. ..... All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.

Page 158, "Special Abilities," section on "Spell Like Abilities"

....... Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. ...... In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Page 28, "Bard," under "Bardic Music" and "Fascinate"

....... Any potential threat (such as an ally of the bard moving behind the fascinated creature) allows the fascinated creature a second saving throw against a new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as casting a spell, drawing a sword, or aiming, automatically breaks the effect.

Since Suggestion is a spell-like ability of the bard, and qualifies as an attack against the subject, it would not be an unreasonable assumption that it could break the Fascinate effect on the target if the Suggestion fails (or at least allow a new save against Fascinate in that case). I'd say the threat of someone forcefully compelling you to act against your will is not something you would just shrug off and let slide.

Just a possibility.

satori01 · Feb 20, 2007

Though I do not think the rules explicitly state it, I always considered the Suggestion ability to be limited to one creature a round. Thus a Bard surprise Facinating a band of 6 orcs...could use Suggestion on one during the first round...another Suggestion on a second round...so on and so forth.

A Bard with Mass Suggestion could effect the whole group in the first round.

DreadArchon · Feb 20, 2007

satori01 said:
Though I do not think the rules explicitly state it, I always considered the Suggestion ability to be limited to one creature a round. Thus a Bard surprise Facinating a band of 6 orcs...could use Suggestion on one during the first round...another Suggestion on a second round...so on and so forth.

A Bard with Mass Suggestion could effect the whole group in the first round.

That's my understanding. Suggestion requires an action to use, so Mass Suggestion is faster.

I Must Be Missing Something on Bard's Suggestion

airwalkrr

Adventurer

Thanee

First Post

airwalkrr

Adventurer

Victim

First Post

Sound of Azure

Contemplative Soul

Thanee

First Post

Arkhandus

First Post

satori01

First Post

DreadArchon

First Post

Similar Threads