Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively

Asmor · Mar 6, 2007

Combat expertise says:

SRD said:
Benefit

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal

A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

What it says under "normal" implies that combat expertise replaces fighting defensively and that they cannot be used simultaneously. It doesn't explicitly state this, though. So is this implication correct, or am I able to both fight defensively AND use combat expertise?

Furthermore, one of the prerequisites for Combat Cloak Expert (PHB 2 tactical feat) is combat expertise. To use the Cloak Defense maneuver, you're required to fight defensively... Can you use combat expertise instead (or in addition)?

green slime · Mar 6, 2007

Stalker0 · Mar 6, 2007

This is one of those times where the SRD doesn't give you the full deal compared to the book. In the book, it clearly states that combat expertise and defensive fighting CAN be used together.

Hypersmurf · Mar 6, 2007

Stalker0 said:
This is one of those times where the SRD doesn't give you the full deal compared to the book. In the book, it clearly states that combat expertise and defensive fighting CAN be used together.

Right. If you look up "Fighting defensively as a standard action" in the Actions in Combat section of the PHB, it says "This bonus stacks with the bonus from the Combat Expertise feat", or words to that effect.

-Hyp.

phindar · Mar 6, 2007

Which is a little weird because at around 4th or 5th level, you get a better AC bonus from Expertise and Fighting Defensively than you do from Full Defense. (If anything, Expertise should stack with Full Def too-- because devoting yourself totally to defense shouldn't leave you more exposed than attacking while defensive-- but it apparently doesn't.)

RigaMortus2 · Mar 6, 2007

phindar said:
Which is a little weird because at around 4th or 5th level, you get a better AC bonus from Expertise and Fighting Defensively than you do from Full Defense. (If anything, Expertise should stack with Full Def too-- because devoting yourself totally to defense shouldn't leave you more exposed than attacking while defensive-- but it apparently doesn't.)

I think it makes sense. Are you more apt to strike (or strike at) an opponent who is being both defensive AND attacking you back, or one who is just devoting himself to defense? I would think you'd be worried about getting poked back, which makes it harder to strike a target who is being defensive AND attacking you at the same time.

Stalker0 · Mar 6, 2007

RigaMortus2 said:
I think it makes sense. Are you more apt to strike (or strike at) an opponent who is being both defensive AND attacking you back, or one who is just devoting himself to defense? I would think you'd be worried about getting poked back, which makes it harder to strike a target who is being defensive AND attacking you at the same time.

Agreed. And this is the benefit of taking a feat, where full defense doesn't require a feat. Further, full defense can be used while you move (its a standard action). CE drops if you move.

green slime · Mar 6, 2007

RigaMortus2 said:
I think it makes sense. Are you more apt to strike (or strike at) an opponent who is being both defensive AND attacking you back, or one who is just devoting himself to defense? I would think you'd be worried about getting poked back, which makes it harder to strike a target who is being defensive AND attacking you at the same time.

Do you really want to take the advice on dodging and ducking, and being evasive, from someone whose handle is "RigaMortus2"? Just wondering....

Hypersmurf · Mar 6, 2007

Stalker0 said:
CE drops if you move.

...?

-Hyp.

phindar · Mar 7, 2007

I can see what you're saying, but for me, I think all things being equal, a character being totally defensive should have a better AC bonus that one being partially defensive. That is to say, a character who doesn't want to get hit and is willing to forgo all his other actions (including threatening, which precludes friends from flanking) to increase his defense should probably get more of a bonus out of it than a guy who doesn't want to get hit, but it still trying to hit other people. Its all his concentration on defense versus some of his concentration on defense. All should be better.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can move with CE. As long as you're making an attack in there and penalizing your attack bonus, you get the dodge bonus for the round.

Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively

Asmor

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green slime

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Stalker0

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Hypersmurf

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phindar

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RigaMortus2

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Stalker0

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green slime

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Hypersmurf

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phindar

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