Better: Duskblade or Duskblade/Wizard/Ultimate Magus?

takasi · Mar 7, 2007

I'm playing a cleric in a campaign and another player is a duskblade. We're both at 5th level right now and thinking about prestige classes. He wants to know which is better overall; a non-multiclassed nor prestige classed duskblade or some type of duskblade/wizard/ultimate magus combo?

Also, by RAW can you use arcane channeling to deliver divine spells through an attack roll? What do people think of a duskblade/archivist/mystic theurge? Can an archivist scribe domain spell scrolls into their prayerbook?

Felon · Mar 7, 2007

I'm not sure why a duskblade would benefit from becoming an ultimate magus. Hit dice and BAB would both suffer, and wizard spells would still impose an ASF chance. You'd become exactly what a duskblade wishes to avoid.

Rystil Arden · Mar 7, 2007

Yup. Duskblade + Dual-Caster PrC is a terrible combo from a mechanics perspective. You lose all the nifty high level Duskblade abilities as well as the BAB, HD, etc and you gain...terrible casting on one side of your double-caster PrC, much worse than if you had just picked something more usual (Wizard, Sorcerer, Beguiler, etc). Of course, if that's what fits your character concept, go for it (however, given the poll and description in the OP, this doesn't seem to be about character concept).

Sejs · Mar 7, 2007

takasi said:
I'm playing a cleric in a campaign and another player is a duskblade. We're both at 5th level right now and thinking about prestige classes. He wants to know which is better overall; a non-multiclassed nor prestige classed duskblade or some type of duskblade/wizard/ultimate magus combo?

Stay straight Duskblade. A Duskblade/Wizard/Ultimate Magus would be both a crappy melee combatant and a crappy caster.

Also, by RAW can you use arcane channeling to deliver divine spells through an attack roll?

By the RAW, yep, you can.

"...you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack."

What do people think of a duskblade/archivist/mystic theurge? Can an archivist scribe domain spell scrolls into their prayerbook?

A Duskblade/Archivist/Mystic Theurge would suck in exact same was as the Ultimate Magus option, above. Crappy caster, crappy melee combatant. And yeah, an Archivist can scribe domain spells into their book.

Nifft · Mar 7, 2007

Duskblades are great as-is. It's already a "combo" class -- you don't really need a PrC.

Caster-based PrCs are definately not the way to go. Duskblade casting is weak, because they get all sorts of other goodies.

Cheers, -- N

takasi · Mar 7, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
You lose all the nifty high level Duskblade abilities as well as the BAB, HD, etc and you gain...

Fair enough. I'm trying to crunch the numbers though. Which abilities are really worth it?

How much BAB would he lose? Comparing a Duskblade 6/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 6 vs Duskblade 15, you're going from +15 to +10, which is almost what a monk or ranger would have.

Comparing average HP for the build, you'd have 53 instead of 71. The player has a 14 con, and will probably have something that boosts his con by +4 at that level, so assume a difference of 113 vs. 131, or 86%.

Rystil Arden said:
terrible casting on one side of your double-caster PrC, much worse than if you had just picked something more usual (Wizard, Sorcerer, Beguiler, etc).

True for the straight wizard, but what about the spellcasting ability (specifically for arcane channeling) for the duskblade? The normal duskblade will have 9/8/7/5, but the multiclass will have 9/8/6/2 for duskblade and then also have 4/4/3/2/1 from the wizard, giving him a net of 13/12/9/4/1, which is much better for channeling spells. In addition, he gets augment casting, arcane spell power, expanded knowledge and a bonus metamagic feat.

He also has access to much better spells, like wraithstrike...

Rystil Arden · Mar 7, 2007

takasi said:
Fair enough. I'm trying to crunch the numbers though. Which abilities are really worth it?

How much BAB would he lose? Comparing a Duskblade 6/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 6 vs Duskblade 15, you're going from +15 to +10, which is almost what a monk or ranger would have.

Comparing average HP for the build, you'd have 53 instead of 71. The player has a 14 con, and will probably have something that boosts his con by +4 at that level, so assume a difference of 113 vs. 131, or 86%.

True for the straight wizard, but what about the spellcasting ability (specifically for arcane channeling) for the duskblade? The normal duskblade will have 9/8/7/5, but the multiclass will have 9/8/6/2 for duskblade and then also have 4/4/3/2/1 from the wizard, giving him a net of 13/12/9/4/1, which is much better for channeling spells. In addition, he gets augment casting, arcane spell power, expanded knowledge and a bonus metamagic feat.

He also has access to much better spells, like wraithstrike...

+5 BAB is *massive*. It is a whole attack and it will become two attacks next level, when Duskblade16 has 4 attacks and Dusk6/Wiz3/UM7 has 2 attacks because of a +6 disparity.

EDIT: If Wraithstrike is in your game, then your entire game will be broken anyway and all balance is moot. In that case, all gishes with Wraithstrike automatically win, so throw all usual rational advice out of the window. The Wraithstriking Ultimate Magus is not better because the combo is better--it is better because Wraithstrike is horribly broken.

Sejs · Mar 7, 2007

takasi said:
Fair enough. I'm trying to crunch the numbers though. Which abilities are really worth it?

Arcane Channeling (Full Attack).

It's the cherry on the Duskblade sundae, and you miss out on it unless you've got 13 levels of the class under your belt.

How much BAB would he lose? Comparing a Duskblade 6/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 6 vs Duskblade 15, you're going from +15 to +10, which is almost what a monk or ranger would have.

A ranger is a full BAB class, it'd have +15. A monk would have a +11. As would a bard.

What I'm trying to say is that by straight BAB numbers, he melees worse than a bard. A bard!

Comparing average HP for the build, you'd have 53 instead of 71. The player has a 14 con, and will probably have something that boosts his con by +4 at that level, so assume a difference of 113 vs. 131, or 86%.

So round about the same as a straight bard...

I think you see where I'm going with this.

True for the straight wizard, but what about the spellcasting ability (specifically for arcane channeling) for the duskblade? The normal duskblade will have 9/8/7/5, but the multiclass will have 9/8/6/2 for duskblade and then also have 4/4/3/2/1 from the wizard, giving him a net of 13/12/9/4/1, which is much better for channeling spells. In addition, he gets augment casting, arcane spell power, expanded knowledge and a bonus metamagic feat.

He also has access to much better spells, like wraithstrike...

First off, ignore Wraithstrike. It's terribly broken and frankly it's one of those Mutually Assured Destruction spells. Use it and you're giving the DM free reign to use it right back on you.

As for having more spells for use with Arcane Channeling - what 5th level touch spells are you going to channel exactly? There arn't a lot of great candidates that leap off the Sor/Wiz list.

Sejs · Mar 7, 2007

Oh, and you miss out on a bunch of Quick Cast iterations. Free Quicken = yes please.

Really what I'm trying to say is that a hybridized Duskblade:

-Has a +10 BAB...
...Which is 1 point lower than a Bard's BAB.

-Has, including the 14 con and a +4 con item an average of 113 hp...
...Which is 2 hp less than a Bard would have at the same level, with the same mods.

-Can cast a truckload of low level spells, and a single 5th level spell per day...
...Which is one less 5th level spell per day than an equally leveled Bard can cast.

-Trades in 3 free Quickens per day and the ability to Arcane Channel with a full attack...
...For a single bonus metamagic feat and the ability to expand your spellbook slightly.

wildstarsreach · Mar 7, 2007

takasi said:
I'm playing a cleric in a campaign and another player is a duskblade. We're both at 5th level right now and thinking about prestige classes. He wants to know which is better overall; a non-multiclassed nor prestige classed duskblade or some type of duskblade/wizard/ultimate magus combo?

Also, by RAW can you use arcane channeling to deliver divine spells through an attack roll? What do people think of a duskblade/archivist/mystic theurge? Can an archivist scribe domain spell scrolls into their prayerbook?

Duskblade all the way. I'm the one playing the duskblade. Even though FAQ allows that you could channel divine spells with arcane channeling, it does say'Arcane', not divine channeling.

Better: Duskblade or Duskblade/Wizard/Ultimate Magus?

Which combo do you think is better?

Duskblade

Duskblade / Wizard / Ultimate Magus

Duskblade / Archivist / Mystic Theurge

takasi

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Felon

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Rystil Arden

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Sejs

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Nifft

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Sejs

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wildstarsreach

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