Wounds for d20 by Ryan Dancey

mhensley · Mar 14, 2007

He has posted a house rule for changing hit points here-

http://web.mac.com/rsdancey/iWeb/RSDanceyBlog/Blog/216AE1D2-CFE8-4822-B0E8-80075FDB63EB.html

It seems like an interesting concept although I would guess that it makes high level combat take much longer. Also getting hit while being flat footed really hurts a lot more.

WhatGravitas · Mar 14, 2007

Hmmm... indeed, a bit complicated. Seems basically like a VP/WP system with added save and penalty for lost WPs - and I'm not sure about the statement, that it won't change much for minor opponents if they have 0 hp, not to mention that the penalty is a bit excessive - a -4 on attack rolls is a -20% hit chance... that's huge, and it penalizes melee fighters much more than spellcasters. I'd reduce it to -2 and apply it to spell-DCs as well...

But I really like the "disabled/down" system, where PCs don't die per se, but are rather left for dead OR captured - this bit will probably be snipped, and it also works in normal D&D.

mhensley · Mar 14, 2007

Now that I think more on it, this system looks like it would make most combats take a lot longer. It makes small creatures even less of a threat. Try being the piddly goblin doing 1d6-1 with his short sword. First he has to hit you with his meager BAB. Then your opponent is still only facing an average of around a 3 DC reflex save. Unless you crit, you have little chance to hurt anyone. I guess we should be glad Ryan wasn't on the design team.

WhatGravitas · Mar 14, 2007

Right... and spells become incredibly powerful, because Reflex saves scale maximally 1/2 level (good save), but even an average spell scales with 3.5/level. That's ludicrous.

Let's see a 10th level Fireball: Average of 35 damage!? A DC 35 save on 10th level? That save is a challenge even for high level characters.

Let's see a 15th level Cone of Cold: Average of 52.5? A save DC of 52? Even halved (with a successful Reflex save as well!) it is a DC of 26. On 15th level...

And another killer: Maximized Fireballs: 6th level, save for DC 30 at least...

For melee the system could work. For magic, it is totally out of whack. The system sounds really neat, but it is unusable right now. It either needs a major rework of the magic system needs a major rework.

But the stuff for wounds as a replacement in a VP/WP-system could actually work.

jasin · Mar 14, 2007

Is he playing a rogue or something?

Wounds stack. Each wound inflicts a -4 Wound penalty on all attack, saving throw, and skill rolls made by the character.

When a character is successfully hit by any effect causing damage, that character makes a Reflex saving throw.

Reflex?

The DC of the save is the amount of damage generated by the attack. The character automatically fails this save if the character is flat-footed, paralyzed, asleep or unconscious, or helpless.

Each additional die rolled (other than weapon damage dice) when determining the damage adds an additional wound (these additional wounds are not multiplied by critical hits).

So a 7th-level rogue hitting anything or anyone in the first round automatically imposes a -20 penalty on attacks, saves, and skills?

mhensley · Mar 14, 2007

jasin said:
So a 7th-level rogue hitting anything or anyone in the first round automatically imposes a -20 penalty on attacks, saves, and skills?

Yep, look out for those ninjas! :uhoh:

Malhost Zormaeril · Mar 14, 2007

Lord Tirian said:
Right... and spells become incredibly powerful, because Reflex saves scale maximally 1/2 level (good save), but even an average spell scales with 3.5/level. That's ludicrous.

Let's see (snip)
For melee the system could work. For magic, it is totally out of whack. The system sounds really neat, but it is unusable right now. It either needs a major rework of the magic system needs a major rework.

But the stuff for wounds as a replacement in a VP/WP-system could actually work.

I think the idea here is that you'd burn HP for the save DC to go down -- for a 52-points-of-dawizard Cone of Cold, you can spend 40 HP to bring the save DC down to 12, which is a bit over 50% chance for an average 10th-level fighter (9 or better on 1d20).

Of course, the problem is that it favours heavily those classes that have good Reflex saves. I could try to use it on the caveat that the save would be a fourth kind (like the Toughness save in M&M), which is good for all PC classes and bad for all NPC ones.

Also, of course, I'd make Wound penalty somehow scale with Constitution bonus, so CON isn't totally nerfed. Perhaps -2 per wound, ignore penalty for first (CON Bonus) wounds.

Hmm, this is beginning to sound pretty different from the original...

Pyrex · Mar 14, 2007

I like the concept, but can't say as I like the implementation.

I like that Ftr characters stay in combat longer against a wide range of attacks because they have more HP to spend to reduce the save DC's and that Rog characters stay in the fight longer against lots of low-to-mid damage attacks because their good Ref save allows them to ignore lots of small hits.

-4/wound is simply too much; -1 or -2 would be more appropriate.

1 wound per die of damage creates far too large a gulf between a Power Attacking Bbn and a Sor with Scorching Ray. The mechanic probably needs to change to something like 1 wound per every 5pts (or fraction thereof) by which you fail the save.

WhatGravitas · Mar 14, 2007

Malhost Zormaeril said:
I think the idea here is that you'd burn HP for the save DC to go down -- for a 52-points-of-dawizard Cone of Cold, you can spend 40 HP to bring the save DC down to 12, which is a bit over 50% chance for an average 10th-level fighter (9 or better on 1d20).

Of course, the problem is that it favours heavily those classes that have good Reflex saves. I could try to use it on the caveat that the save would be a fourth kind (like the Toughness save in M&M), which is good for all PC classes and bad for all NPC ones.

Also, of course, I'd make Wound penalty somehow scale with Constitution bonus, so CON isn't totally nerfed. Perhaps -2 per wound, ignore penalty for first (CON Bonus) wounds.

Hmm, this is beginning to sound pretty different from the original...

Of course the idea is using Reflex to burn down, but then, it often ends it being very similar to a hp-mechanic itself, just with the possibility to make Reflex-save against any amount of damage, whenever you take damage - allowing you to negate some damage, but possibly resulting in penalties.

Basically, the main difference will become that you effectively gain damage resistance equal you reflex save, since you'll about never risk such high penalites.

EDIT: After reading my own post, it sounds far more hostile than I intended it to sound. I just think that the Wound system is a bit wacky, and either reduces itself to the traditional hp system or is a bit too punishing - plus spellcasters can still get hit - they take no penalty. Dancey's idea has its merit... but seems to need some work

Graf · Mar 21, 2007

This... is a terrible idea.
I mean, it's really horrible.

What's the point again? to make combat more complex? To try for realism?
Random reflex saves?

Ugh.