Help getting to high levels

Lord Vangarel · Aug 7, 2002

My players often joke that I never let them get to high levels and looking back most campaigns have ended somewhere between 10th and 15th level. I think one reason for this was that in previous editions high level opponents wern't as readily available as in 3E.

The current campaign is approaching 8th level and the players have started to make jokes about when the new campaign will start but I'd really like to get to high levels. The last campaign ran for 15 months and reached level 14 which was probably the highest I've ever DM'd.

I think part of the problem is fear of these higher levels. Also as characters reach these 'epic' levels I've seen people comment that the bonuses become more important than the actual d20 roll. Am I worrying about nothing? The epic level handbook acknowledges some problems with just progressing characters because it changes the rules to accommodate higher levels with attacks and saves. I couldn't imagine getting higher than mid 20's or early 30's but will the current rules accommodate this?

So my questions are:

- Advice on higher level play, how to keep it interesting.
- Do I need the epic level handbook or could we just progress the characters up a bit beyond 20th level?
- For those that have or are playing higher levels do the bonuses outway the d20 roll i.e. does the system reach a point where having to roll a d20 seems meaningless as it would appear from Deities and Demigods?

Thanks.

Lord Vangarel · Aug 7, 2002

Bounce.

No one wants to reply?

Cloudgatherer · Aug 7, 2002

Honestly, never ran a high level campaign. Just ended one where the characters progressed from 1st to 13/14th level over the course of a year. As I've been reading the ELH (got it cheap from buy.com before they jacked the price back up), I'm considering it a viable option.

Honestly, if you are going to progress to or beyond 20th level play, I'd definitely suggest getting the ELH. I'm considering a game where everyone *starts* at 25th level. I think the rules will scale well, up above level 50 even.

And while I haven't played at that high level myself, the bonuses vs. role does get lopsided, but you can get this at 20th level. 23 ranks in a skill + skill mod so figure roughly 26-30 for a total modifier to a roll at 20th level for a skill attempt. Gaining levels increases this bonus, but there are "epic" uses of existing skills, so you'll still need to roll that die!

jgbrowning · Aug 7, 2002

higher levels

im in the same boat with you. been playing for 20 years and IMO the higher level play just gets a little silly. And it becomes tremendously difficult for a DM to maintain campaign plausability.

my highest group got to 13 and finding challanges for them was difficult. i'm not into the heavy role-playing aspect, i like action to occur. i don't want to sit around and just pretend to be an entire slew of NPC for 8 hours. my maximum amount of role-playing is for important NPC's and i ususally dont do more than an hour or two of such stuff per gaming session.

why?

its hard as hell to do. If i wanted to do it for almost the full time i wouldnt need the d20 rules to do so.

joe b.

ps. im interested in seeing some opinions about high-levels here.

Al · Aug 7, 2002

Well, as you're all no doubt fed up with hearing, I finished a campaign running from levels 1 to 20 finishing a couple of months ago.

Though it turned to be rather hack-n-slashy, the trick is simply to do what your players like, but on a macro scale.

If they like hack-n-slash (as mine tend to) then give them ancient crypts, pit them against dragon lords, liches, and bascially more of the same.

If they like intrigue, have them dealing with kings and dukes rather than mayors and publicans.

Basically, there is no 'secret' to high level play. Just do what you were always doing: but on a bigger and wider scale.

Thorin Stoutfoot · Aug 7, 2002

Ever considered pre-canned modules?

There are a number of them out now. There's WoTC's adventure path, there's Monte Cook's Demon God's Fane. A subscription to Dungeon would bring you lots of high level adventures as well.

What I am finding is that there's a dearth of adventures between 16-20 levels.

ForceUser · Aug 7, 2002

Lord Vangarel said:
My players often joke that I never let them get to high levels and looking back most campaigns have ended somewhere between 10th and 15th level. I think one reason for this was that in previous editions high level opponents wern't as readily available as in 3E.

The current campaign is approaching 8th level and the players have started to make jokes about when the new campaign will start but I'd really like to get to high levels. The last campaign ran for 15 months and reached level 14 which was probably the highest I've ever DM'd.

I think part of the problem is fear of these higher levels. Also as characters reach these 'epic' levels I've seen people comment that the bonuses become more important than the actual d20 roll. Am I worrying about nothing? The epic level handbook acknowledges some problems with just progressing characters because it changes the rules to accommodate higher levels with attacks and saves. I couldn't imagine getting higher than mid 20's or early 30's but will the current rules accommodate this?

So my questions are:

- Advice on higher level play, how to keep it interesting.
- Do I need the epic level handbook or could we just progress the characters up a bit beyond 20th level?
- For those that have or are playing higher levels do the bonuses outway the d20 roll i.e. does the system reach a point where having to roll a d20 seems meaningless as it would appear from Deities and Demigods?

Thanks.

Baby steps, man.

Generally speaking, the higher level the characters get the tougher it is to challenge them. However, you can always challenge the players, regardless of the level of their characters, with things such as diplomatic situations, conundrums, puzzles, riddles, political situations, etc. This stuff never gets old.

You certainly do not need the epic level handbook, and actually if you're new to high-level play I'd recommend against buying it until you are comfortable dealing with powerful characters. It's all 21+ anyway, and not many campaigns run that long.

As far as combat encounters go, the way to challenge the characters is to include many encounters throughout the same day, which slowly chews up resources, before hitting the party with a big nasty encounter at the end. If they are burning disposable magic items (potions, scrolls, wands, staves, etc) then you're doing it right. Advanced creatures and creatures immune to popular spell effects are both useful, as are no-save spells cast upon the players (such as the power word line). Hit them with turn-resistant energy draining undead, such as vampires. Formians are a great obstacle, being as they are immune or resistant to almost every energy type. Other adventuring groups are also a threat, though you want to be careful about those, because when the party inevitably wins they get all their magic items, which could be quite a lot.

The best advice I can give about DMing high level play however, is make sure you are prepared for the divination spells your party will inevitably cast! Know what's going on in your campaign world, know what your bad guys are up to, that way when the players cast a commune or contact other plane, you already know the answers. Design adventures assuming these spells will be cast! And remember, knowing that the assassin Joe Smith is going to try to murder the Queen in three days is not the same as finding him and stopping him!

Hope that helps!