Ryan Dancey Answers to OGL questions

Vigilance · Jul 14, 2007

RyanD said:
If a table is generated by a simple linear equation, then it cannot be copyright.

The AD&D "THAC0" table is a simple linear equation and can't be copyright.

It's just an expression of a simple formula, and formulas are not subject to copyright (they might be patentable, but that ship has sailed).

The AD&D1 to-hit charts are more complex. They are partially equation driven, and partially driven by Gary's preferences when he designed the system.

Hi Ryan, first, thanks for addressing my question. But I think you misread me a bit.

I wasn't asking whether or not a "to-hit" table could be copyrighted. I think it can.

My question was more about, with the "to-hit" concept basically being the Base Attack Bonus under a different name and slightly different progression, hasn't the inclusion of the BAB in the SRD let the genie out of the bottle so to speak?

Or do you think you'd have to rigidly adhere to the way BAB works for this to be true (with three progressions of slow, medium and fast for example).

In short, what I'm saying is that a reverse engineering project like OSRIC, or like a possible future project emulating 4th edition, might have been impossible to do legally BEFORE the SRD but could be accomplished NOW, because so many of the base conceptual building blocks have been released for use.

Chuck

PapersAndPaychecks · Jul 14, 2007

Ourph said:
(Re: Tables not being specifically rules)

That's an interesting hypothesis. I'm not familiar with the case that establishes that precedent though.

I don't understand why a precedent would be needed. Clearly a table isn't necessarily a game rule, and vice versa.

Therefore surely if anyone wants to contend that a table is a rule, the burden of proof is on the person making this contention?

RyanD · Jul 14, 2007

Vigilance said:
My question was more about, with the "to-hit" concept basically being the Base Attack Bonus under a different name and slightly different progression, hasn't the inclusion of the BAB in the SRD let the genie out of the bottle so to speak?

I don't think that the game system of:

Code:

To hit:  Roll a die, add a modifier, compare to a target value

Can be protected by copyright.

Nor do I think that the game system of:

Code:

Increase the class linked to-hit bonuses at various intervals determined by class. <br> When that bonus exceeds a multiple of 5, add a new to-hit bonus starting at +1

Can be protected by copyright.

From that point, things start to get gray real quick the more closely the selection, arrangement and presentation of the work matches D&D.

Ryan

Kem · Jul 14, 2007

Ourph said:
That's an interesting hypothesis. I'm not familiar with the case that establishes that precedent though.

I'm not familiar with a case that disproves it. Which is why I use the examples I come across in programming/computers where most of the rules are the same.

Delta · Jul 14, 2007

RyanD said:
There's theory, and there's practice...

Ryan, thanks for your nuanced reply, it's incredibly informative (and provides some great insights into the working environment inside Wizards).

I might say that I've always been hugely impressed by your insights into the gaming industry. Even in this thread I think your comments on the prospect of game-copyright-litigation (likely expanding protections), and wishing there were a unique identifier for d20-style OGL works (something I've grappled with in my writing) are absolutely spot-on.

Thanks so much for being part of the gaming industry! I think you've really advanced the art in ways that I really wouldn't have thought possible pre-2000.

Goblinoid Games · Jul 14, 2007

RyanD said:
I do wish that "OGL" hadn't been adopted as a synonym for "D20 without the D20STL" though. That's an improvement I'd make to a 2.0 version of the OGL; some sort of naming protection of its own. May be too late to matter though.

I wonder if one way to combat this would be for publishers to include an OGL logo prominently on book covers even if the game or supplement is NOT easily compatible. This way maybe, slowly, OGL can mean only "I used the Open Game License in this product," without other connotations.

Ourph · Jul 15, 2007

PapersAndPaychecks said:
I don't understand why a precedent would be needed. Clearly a table isn't necessarily a game rule, and vice versa.

Agreed.

PapersAndPaychecks said:
Therefore surely if anyone wants to contend that a table is a rule, the burden of proof is on the person making this contention?

I'm not a lawyer, so I have no idea who would bear the burden of proof if that question was ever presented in court. A previous poster stated (paraphrased) "tables aren't considered rules, they are information" in a fairly factual way (as if it was legal precedent), which is why I enquired further. From what Ryan says this hasn't been established in any meaningful way yet for games (and especially for RPGs), so I guess that answers my question.

It seems to me that if a table is acting as an illustration of a rule (even if that rule isn't an algorithm or mathematical progression) there is at least some doubt as to whether the table would be considered a "rule" or "something else".

:edit to add:

To illustrate what I'm saying, there is a table in the AD&D PHB that tells you how many weapon proficiencies each class begins the game with. The numerical values obviously don't follow any mathematical progression or algorithm (i.e. - they are "editorial" as Ryan would put it). If those values were included in the class descriptions as text would they qualify as a rule? If so, does changing the format from text to table change their status? If yes, what principle (legislation, legal precedent, etc.) is that based on?

That is, perhaps, a clearer restatement of my original question.

Ranger REG · Jul 15, 2007

Goblinoid Games said:
I wonder if one way to combat this would be for publishers to include an OGL logo prominently on book covers even if the game or supplement is NOT easily compatible. This way maybe, slowly, OGL can mean only "I used the Open Game License in this product," without other connotations.

I'd rather publishers find other (non-d20SRD) rulesystems that have been designated under the OGL.

Jolly_Blackburn · Jul 15, 2007

PapersAndPaychecks said:
A problem I've constantly encountered with OSRIC is that I keep seeing these very confident pronouncements from people who haven't read the document thoroughly, and I have to say that I really do find that rather frustrating.

There seems to be an assumption that I must be some amateur punk who hasn't taken legal advice, and after a year of these imputations I have to admit that I'm getting a little tired of it. I have taken plenty of legal advice on these subjects and I've produced OSRIC with all due care.

I think it's more a natural curiosity. One hears of OSRIC and what's being done it's natural to think, "Whoah -- this guy is in for some rough weather."

It's not personal. It's just a subject that's going to get folks talking. So I think you're doing the right thing by communicating and putting rumors to rest.

But I think comments such as the one you left on the Kenzerboards recently only fuel the flames.

Ref:

<<<<I'm amused that Americans always assume that US law or rules of procedure apply to me.

Hasbro could force me to host the file outside the US. Hardly a big problem.>>>>

The rumor mongers can really take something like that and read (what they want to) between the lines.

Personally I say more power to you. It's obviously a labor of love.

Like you say it's between you and WotC. I wish you continued luck/success with it.

Mouseferatu · Jul 15, 2007

Scott_Rouse said:
As for the PR hit of using OGC it would have to be extremely widespread (IMO 20% or more OGC) before we would be accused of milking the OGL publishing community.

It would have to be extremely widespread for such accusations to have any justification, maybe. But the accusations would probably fly from some people if a book had so much as one word of OGC.

Ryan Dancey Answers to OGL questions

Vigilance

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PapersAndPaychecks

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RyanD

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Kem

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Delta

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Ourph

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Ranger REG

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Jolly_Blackburn

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Mouseferatu

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