E6: The Game Inside D&D

Hrothgar Rannúlfr · Sep 14, 2007

The Warcanist

I'm working on a new base class for 3.5 d20 that I'd like to suggest for E6 games. I've also included some feats that you might find useful in E6.

Have a look at:

The Warcanist

joela · Sep 15, 2007

class differentiation at e9

"Q: Why 6th level for the cap? Why not 12th, or 20th?
A: My experience in D&D is that at around 6th level the characters are really nicely balanced, both in terms of balance against other classes, and against the CR system. Also, there was an element of setting assumptions; each class is strong enough that they're well defined in their role, but not so strong that lower-level characters don't matter to them any more."

Does that "balance" and "setting assumption" still hold at E9? Or do spellcasters overwhelm the other classes?

Kunimatyu · Sep 15, 2007

joela said:
Does that "balance" and "setting assumption" still hold at E9? Or do spellcasters overwhelm the other classes?

Improved Invisibility, Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Teleport, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Evard's Black Tentacles, Control Water, Control Winds -- all of these significantly enhance the power of spellcasters at these levels, and non-casters get few enhancements themselves.

So, yes, they overwhelm - though if you're willing to accept the tilt in favor of casters, it could still be a fun way to play.

Ry · Sep 15, 2007

Also there's the "spread to zero" issue: A 9th level fighter can kill off obnoxiously large numbers of 1st-level warriors. I mean, if you could kill 20 men armed with lethal weapons in a straight-up fight on your own and probably go on to do it again in the next room, you're stretching the bounds of heroic fantasy IMO.

Grimstaff · Sep 15, 2007

joela said:
Does that "balance" and "setting assumption" still hold at E9? Or do spellcasters overwhelm the other classes?

Looking at the class charts for 9th level, its actually a very nice capping point all around. All the classes get one final saving throw increase. Bards, Rangers, and Druids have gotten all their most important class abilities. Fighters have a nice boost to their iterative attacks and are at least two feats into the advanced (8th level minimum) fighter stuff like Imp. Crit. Sorcerer gets a precious extra spell known at 2,3,and 4th levels. All in all, its a very happy place, except maybe for Barbarians and Monks, who cap out of the important stuff at 8th (a good reason to take that cool multiclass level you've wanted). Paladins, of course, blow their important stuff by 6th. But for the overwhelming majority of classes (most importantly the "core four") this is a very sweet spot to hit. Edit:Oh yeah, Rogues hit the big 5d6 for sneak attacks, too!
And for the grognards, their is the charm of reaching ye'auld "name level".

I don't see spellcasters stealing any thunder here, especially if the dm is selective about what 5th level spells he allows into the campaign.

Grimstaff · Sep 15, 2007

Kunimatyu said:
Improved Invisibility, Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Teleport, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Evard's Black Tentacles, Control Water, Control Winds -- all of these significantly enhance the power of spellcasters at these levels, and non-casters get few enhancements themselves.

So, yes, they overwhelm - though if you're willing to accept the tilt in favor of casters, it could still be a fun way to play.

I don't know, I think if you playtest a 9th lvl wiz vs. a 9th level fighter, there won't be much contest, even with 3 rounds of "prep time". Same with a 9th lvl rogue vs. 9th lvl cleric.

ymmv, of course...

Grimstaff · Sep 15, 2007

rycanada said:
Also there's the "spread to zero" issue: A 9th level fighter can kill off obnoxiously large numbers of 1st-level warriors. I mean, if you could kill 20 men armed with lethal weapons in a straight-up fight on your own and probably go on to do it again in the next room, you're stretching the bounds of heroic fantasy IMO.

Just playing devils advocate, but if you play them intelligently, those 20 1st levels shouldn't have that much trouble with the 9th lvl fighter. Flank, Aid, Disarm, Sunder, Grapple, Full defensive, and ranged attacks, not to mention stuff like nets, poisoned arrows, tanglefoot bags, and a couple of 1st lvl spellslingers off to one side with rays of enfeeblement and dooms going off, the poor 9th level is going to have a hard time escaping, much less conquering.
Just saying...

Kunimatyu · Sep 15, 2007

Grimstaff said:
I don't know, I think if you playtest a 9th lvl wiz vs. a 9th level fighter, there won't be much contest, even with 3 rounds of "prep time". Same with a 9th lvl rogue vs. 9th lvl cleric.

ymmv, of course...

Head to head combat isn't how you determine class balance -- effectiveness and options available while fighting in a party is.

That being said, the wizard has a number of options available - like Improved Invis and Wall of Force - that the fighter simply cannot counter. The fights you describe tend to be very one-sided, especially if a few rounds of buffs come into play.

Imp · Sep 15, 2007

While I'm not 100% convinced I should back off from E8 (I can at least devise counters to Improved Invis.: a feat or two working off Blind-Fight to help pinpoint invisibles and possibly a little alchemical sack-of-flour-in-a-vial should cover that spell, which will only last 8 rounds tops; Solid Fog is stickier)...

9th has Commune, Raise Dead, Slay Living, True Seeing, Contact Other Plane, Teleport, Overland Flight, Permanency, etc., etc., and you really may as well let in the whole 20 levels at that point, IMO.

What I am wondering currently is if E6 could benefit from a much simpler dispel magic mechanic, since caster levels, esp. of those who can cast the spell, hardly diverge at all. That is, under E6 I'm tempted to make the spell just automatically work.

Kunimatyu · Sep 15, 2007

Imp said:
While I'm not 100% convinced I should back off from E8 (I can at least devise counters to Improved Invis.: a feat or two working off Blind-Fight to help pinpoint invisibles and possibly a little alchemical sack-of-flour-in-a-vial should cover that spell, which will only last 8 rounds tops; Solid Fog is stickier)...

9th has Commune, Raise Dead, Slay Living, True Seeing, Contact Other Plane, Teleport, Overland Flight, Permanency, etc., etc., and you really may as well let in the whole 20 levels at that point, IMO.

What I am wondering currently is if E6 could benefit from a much simpler dispel magic mechanic, since caster levels, esp. of those who can cast the spell, hardly diverge at all. That is, under E6 I'm tempted to make the spell just automatically work.

(this is off the top of my head, and has not been playtested)

Limit its ability to dispel in a radius, and just have it dispel one magical effect of your choice on a target. Counterspelling becomes an opposed caster level check. Done.

E6: The Game Inside D&D

Hrothgar Rannúlfr

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joela

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Kunimatyu

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Ry

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Grimstaff

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Grimstaff

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Kunimatyu

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Imp

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Kunimatyu

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