E6: The Game Inside D&D

wotmaniac said:

any thoughts on mixing E6 with the Generic Classes from UA?

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Personally, I think it can be a nice match for E6, especially in less "wahoo" settings.

One problem might be that generic classes don't mesh perfectly with published material, if you're using it.

Also, while they are pretty flexible, the generics as presented in UA lack a lot of the "cool factor" of certain regular D&D classes. You can't emulate a druid straight out of the box, for example-- so you might have a little homework to do to bring in class features the players might want. But in an E6 game, there's not a whole lot to do in this area since the levels are capped, so it should be manageable.

Turns out I was incorrect about the party only having the +1 inherent from Wish, thanks to using Wish to generate arbitrarily large amounts of material components that can be used to cast Wish (up to 25000gp a casting).

Also, if someone in the group does manage to get Wish and cast it, expect the economy to go away at that point unless you have a good way to model how it responds to the influx of magically generated gold (perhaps Wish devalues the gold piece on a cosmic level so that 25000gp worth of some rare substance that becomes the economic standard is actually not that much). I just let it go since they can only buy up to caster level 6 items, and by the time someone managed to cast Wish the party was already pretty saturated with stuff they could actually purchase rather than find or make.

the_orc_within said:

You can't emulate a druid straight out of the box, for example

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It could be argued that this is a feature and not a bug!

New to E6 and GMing

Hey guys, I'm relatively new to GMing and am still trying to iron out some rules in my mind before I begin my E6 campaign.

My question is with regards to item creation. In a world where crafters and casters can only be as powerful as level 6, is it not true that the only real item restrictions are ones that require spells above 3rd level and armor and weapons with enhancement bonuses above +2? Staffs and Rods would not exist because of the feat requirements unless patched in like rings are with the extra feat.

Could we not include an item like

Pearl of Power (3rd)
Bracers of Archery, Greater
+2 Longsword of Undead Bane

The pearl only requires the ability to cast the level of spell and the bracers only have feat requirements easily attainable within 6 levels. The longsword doesn't go past the +2 mark for any single ability.

I am, however, baffled on what to do with stat boosting items like:

Gauntlets of Ogre Power(+2)
Headband of Intellect(+2,+4,+6)
Cloak of Charisma(+2,+4,+6)
Belt of Giant Strength(+4,+6)

All four of them have spell requirements that are attainable by level 6, yet they have vastly different power levels. Should the the rest be modded to look like the Gauntlets and have only one option of potency (+2)? Or should all have a full list the Headband and the Cloak (+2,+4,+6)? I was considering that the first would be the most fair in relation the power levels of other items but I'm sure you guys have different, more informed opinions that could help me.

One final question: What about the Rogue's sneak attack and the Undead? I'm running an undead-heavy game that would practically obsolete rogues. I'll note WotC did publish a Bardic feat (Requiem) that allows their music to perfectly affect undead in Libris Mortis.

I have, so far, found no way for rogues to get the full sneak attack bonus in E6 against undead without writing in a house feat. Have you guys found any better solution? Perhaps rogues are simply meant to be obsolete or at least limited in this kind of world I'm envisioning (but I sure hope not).

Any help would be very, very much appreciated.

MiilouSuede: just do as they did in 4e - remove the sneak attack immunity. No extra feat or anything. If you think it's too powerful, make undeads take -1d6 damage from sneak attack.

Pathfinder also removed the sneak attack immunity from most things, unless they are incorporeal. I think it's a good idea, especially if a PC has a rogue in an undead heavy campaign. No need to follow RAW if it interferes too much with a player's fun.

@MiilouSuede: On item creation, it really depends what you you want for your campaign. To tightly control magic, for example, the easiest thing to do is just look at CLs: anything higher than CL6th is not allowed in an E6 campaign. That can be considered draconian by some, though

Here's a list that someone(s) (I don't remember who) put together of SRD items possible to create in a standard E6 game. Actually, it probably came from this thread, but I'll post the info again:[sblock]CAVEAT EMPTOR: I don't vouch for anything on this list. It's compiled from a couple other lists posted online (in this very thread, perhaps?)-- so I make no guarantees!


Minor Wondrous Items:
Elixir of love 150 gp
Unguent of timelessness 150 gp
Dust of tracelessness 250 gp
Elixir of hiding 250 gp
Elixir of sneaking 250 gp
Elixir of swimming 250 gp
Silversheen 250 gp
Elixir of truth 500 gp
Bag of tricks, gray 900 gp
Hand of the mage 900 gp
Bracers of armor +1 1,000 gp
Cloak of resistance +1 1,000 gp
Pearl of power, 1st-level spell 1,000 gp
Phylactery of faithfulness 1,000 gp
Salve of slipperiness 1,000 gp
Elixir of fire breath 1,100 gp
Pipes of the sewers 1,150 gp
Dust of illusion 1,200 gp
Brooch of shielding 1,500 gp
Necklace of fireballs type I 1,650 gp
Dust of appearance 1,800 gp
Hat of disguise 1,800 gp
Pipes of sounding 1,800 gp
Amulet of natural armor +1 2,000 gp
Horn of fog 2,000 gp
Robe of bones 2,400 gp
Sovereign glue 2,400 gp
Boots of elvenkind 2,500 gp
Boots of the winterlands 2,500 gp
Candle of truth 2,500 gp
Cloak of elvenkind 2,500 gp
Scarab, golembane 2,500 gp
Necklace of fireballs type II 2,700 gp
Stone of alarm 2,700 gp
Bag of tricks, rust 3,000 gp
Chime of opening 3,000 gp
Horseshoes of speed 3,000 gp
Rope of climbing 3,000 gp
Dust of disappearance 3,500 gp
Lens of detection 3,500 gp 57
Bracers of armor +2 4,000 gp
Cloak of resistance +2 4,000 gp
Gloves of arrow snaring 4,000 gp \
Restorative ointment 4,000 gp 68
Pearl of power, 2nd-level spell 4,000 gp
Circlet of persuasion 4,500 gp 7
Slippers of spider climbing 4,800 gp
Bracers of archery, lesser 5,000 gp
Helm of comprehend languages and read magic 5,200 gp
Vest of escape 5,200 gp
Eversmoking bottle 5,400 gp
Sustaining spoon 5,400 gp
Boots of striding and springing 5,500 gp
Wind fan 5,500 gp
Amulet of mighty fists +1 6,000 gp
Horseshoes of a zephyr 6,000 gp
Pipes of haunting 6,000 gp
Gloves of swimming and climbing 6,250 gp
Circlet of blasting, minor 6,480 gp
Horn of goodness/evil 6,500 gp
Bottle of air 7,250 gp
Periapt of health

Medium Wondrous Items:
Bracers or armor +3
Amulet of NAC +2
Boots of haste
Cloak of Arcadia
Minor cloak of displacement



ARMOR/SHIELD BONUSES
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork armor or shield.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 1,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 4,000gp.
Acid Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Arrow Deflection: CL 5, 4,000gp.
Cold Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Electricity Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Fire Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Shadow: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Silent Moves: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Slick: CL 4, 3,750gp.
Sonic Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.

SPECIFIC ARMORS
Celestial Armor: CL 5, 22,400gp.
Mithral Full Plate of Speed: CL 5, 26,500gp.

SPECIFIC SHIELDS
Caster’s Shield: CL 6, 3,153gp.
Spined Shield: CL 6, 5,580gp.
Winged Shield: CL 5, 17,257gp

WEAPON BONUSES
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork weapon.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 2,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Distance: CL 6, 2,000gp.
Merciful: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Thundering: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Throwing: CL 5, 2,000gp.

SPECIFIC WEAPONS
Dagger of Venom: CL 5, 8,302gp.
Javelin of Lightning: CL 5, 1,500gp.
Screaming Bolt: CL 5, 267gp.
Sleep Arrow: CL 5, 132gp.

RINGS
Animal Friendship: CL 3, 10,800gp.
Chameleon Power: CL 3, 12,700gp.
Climbing: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Climbing, Improved: CL 5, 10,000gp. (10 ranks of climb can be achieved with the Skill Beyond Your Years feat)
Energy Resistance, Minor: CL 3, 12,000gp.
Feather Falling: CL 1, 2,200gp.
Invisibility: CL 3, 20,000gp.
Jumping: CL 2, 2,500gp.
Mind Shielding: CL 3, 8,000gp.
Protection +1: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Protection +2: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Spell Storing, Minor: CL 5, 18,000gp.
Sustenance: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Swimming: CL 2, 2,500gp.
X-Ray Vision: CL 6, 25,000gp.[/sblock]

If you want to risk adding in higher-power magics, you might use the creator-level rule for magic armor and weapons requiring a caster to be 3x the degree of enhancement. In this case, the Belt of Giant Strength +2 could be made at 3x(+2ability)=CL6th, but not any stronger versions. (And this neatly matches the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, as well.) Likewise, a Pearl of Power for 2nd level spells could be crafted at 3x(2ndLevel)=CL6th, but no higher-power Pearls. And so on.

This doesn't work perfectly, and there are always hidden balance issues that don't pop up until the game gets going, of course, but it's a starting point.

Good Luck!

Shazman said:

Pathfinder also removed the sneak attack immunity from most things, unless they are incorporeal. I think it's a good idea, especially if a PC has a rogue in an undead heavy campaign. No need to follow RAW if it interferes too much with a player's fun.

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Interesting. I am running a Pathfinder game alongside this one being a more strictly vanilla 3.5. I really may have to consider either removing the immunity or modding it in as a new feat. It is true, though, serious RAW has the possibility of ruining player fun.

Just curious, are you guys running/playing your E6 in Pathfinder or in a more traditional WotC 3.5? I typically really like how the classes have been updated (but not too far as to be unrecognizable), but I was assuming E6 was not created and balanced with its variations in mind. How's it worked for you guys (specifically with regards to class balance)?

the_orc_within said:

On item creation, it really depends what you you want for your campaign. To tightly control magic, for example, the easiest thing to do is just look at CLs: anything higher than CL6th is not allowed in an E6 campaign. That can be considered draconian by some, though

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Right. My thought is that items of x>6 CL are entirely possible to be created by level 6 characters. Whether or not they go beyond the basic power of a normal magic of that level (but only for purposes of detect magic, SR, etc.), in my mind, is of no real concern. However, that's mainly due to the low-high-low level of magic world I want to create. Hah!

If you want to risk adding in higher-power magics, you might use the creator-level rule for magic armor and weapons requiring a caster to be 3x the degree of enhancement. In this case, the Belt of Giant Strength +2 could be made at 3x(+2ability)=CL6th, but not any stronger versions. (And this neatly matches the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, as well.) Likewise, a Pearl of Power for 2nd level spells could be crafted at 3x(2ndLevel)=CL6th, but no higher-power Pearls. And so on.

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My main complaint with the Pearls as it already neatly provides the required creator level within its text.

SRD said:

"Strong transmutation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled; Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th), or 70,000 gp (two spells).

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And the same process applies to Bracers of Armor +3, which we already accept in that item list even though it's past the normal +2 trend all the other items.

SRD said:

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, mage armor, creator’s caster level must be at least two times that of the bonus placed in the bracers; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8); Weight 1 lb.

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So I'm not sure why we're approaching the two items differently. Maybe it's because the difference between a single free armor point and a single free 3rd level spell are of dramatically different values (and their CL's certainly reflect that with a gap of 10).

However, using such a rigid attention to rules as I have can cause problems such as the stat boosting items. This goes back to the creatorI'll probably allow them all but only at the +2 level.

Even in that case, though, we're not making decisions based on RAW and we're only basing it on how we want to flavor the world. I simply find it kinda silly to not be able to create items you can already create but I can totally see why you would restrict them down for RP reasons. This goes exactly with the Cautious vs. Gestalt approach to allowing feats.

I'd also go back to the creator level rule and modify it for my game. When we consider the RAW, the x3 requirement can only apply to armor/weapons and not wondrous items. But this rigid approach can bring in balance issues with all the stat boosting items quoted above. The highest level can be technically created even by a level 6 character but I'd call that quite unfair with regards to the power of all the items in the "list" you quoted.

So I'm stuck at that point with a design decision. I think I'll just chop them down to the +2 level but simultaneously also allow things like Pearl +3 and Bracers +3 AC because of extra creator level text. But I'll admit to feeling a little hypocritical.

This doesn't work perfectly, and there are always hidden balance issues that don't pop up until the game gets going, of course, but it's a starting point.

Good Luck!

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Thank ya so much!

Edit:

Cloak of Arcadia

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Is that meant to be Cloak of Arachnida?

MiilouSuede said:

Right. My thought is that items of x>6 CL are entirely possible to be created by level 6 characters. Whether or not they go beyond the basic power of a normal magic of that level (but only for purposes of detect magic, SR, etc.), in my mind, is of no real concern. However, that's mainly due to the low-high-low level of magic world I want to create. Hah!

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Only insofar as they can boost their caster level somehow. I can think of a few ways to get a +1 boost but that seems to be about it unless I am missing something pretty obvious. Most prestige classes (the usual trick) are either too high of a level or you can only get the beginning of the sequence.

If I recall correctly, the +2 strength item is the only one that is legal.

Higher level items could exist (your artifact list) but a major advantage of E6 is the move away from the banality of magic due to item creation rules that are pretty mild. Small magics can be done this way but that ring of invisibility is a lot spiffier if the wizard can't just make it.

Votan said:

Only insofar as they can boost their caster level somehow. I can think of a few ways to get a +1 boost but that seems to be about it unless I am missing something pretty obvious. Most prestige classes (the usual trick) are either too high of a level or you can only get the beginning of the sequence.

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I'm not entirely sure what you're implying. Are you saying the items with x>6 CL artificially boost the creator's level? We do have Boots of Haste (I assume that's Boots of Speed) on the list with a CL 10 but I'm not sure how consequential that is.

If I recall correctly, the +2 strength item is the only one that is legal.

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Why though? I simply don't see the rules forbidding it either in the DMG or the E6 guide. I'm almost sure I'm wrong, but I want to know why so I can further understand the rules.

Higher level items could exist (your artifact list) but a major advantage of E6 is the move away from the banality of magic due to item creation rules that are pretty mild. Small magics can be done this way but that ring of invisibility is a lot spiffier if the wizard can't just make it.

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I agree. I like the whole gritty feel of it where there's more emphasis on tactics and planning as opposed to simply overcoming problems with a glut of power. I want to be able to grasp this system more fully, specifically with regards to item creation, before I dive headlong into it.

With regards to the ring, how should we restrict crafting of it? It doesn't have as a high a CL as the others (it's only a 3) and with the E6 Wondrous Rings feat, it's entirely impossible for a 6th level character. I agree crafting can take a lot of the fun out of the game but I'm unsure about how to govern it.