E6: The Game Inside D&D

@MiilouSuede:

I simply don't see the rules forbidding it either in the DMG or the E6 guide. I'm almost sure I'm wrong, but I want to know why so I can further understand the rules.

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Here's a link to a WotC Rules of the Game article on item creation basics. Looks like item CL is also the minimum CL for the creator of that item. It's not explicitly stated in the rules that I can find (not in the SRD, at least), but it does seem to be the "semi-official" assumption. And that does seem to be the assumption that went into the E6 (and I presume other 3.5e) stuff.

If you do want to power things up in E6, maybe consider using feats to ensure PCs are deep into epic 6th level territory before they start whipping up powerful items. As is, the rejiggering of "Forge Ring" into "Wondrous Rings" already does this to some extent; similar ones for other items could easily be patched in, as you suggested. Alternatively, you could use something that effectively boosts CL for the purposes of item creation only. Frex, (and these are just off-the-cuff brainstorm examples, with no analysis!):
[sblock]
Accomplished Item Creation [Item Creation]
Prereq: 3 item creation feats, Knowledge(Arcana) 9 ranks
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL9th for which has all other requirements. This caster is also considered 9th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.

Expert Item Creation [Item Creation]
Prereq: 5 item creation feats, including Accomplished Item Creation; Int 19+
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL12th for which has all other requirements. This caster is also considered 12th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.

Master Item Creation [Item creation]
Prereq: 7 item creation feats, including Expert Item Creation; Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks; Int 21+
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL18th for which has all other requirements.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.
[/sblock]
Another option, and imho a bit more flavorful, you could add on additional requirements, like a magical "blueprint" that must be research/discovered for each item which (effectively) boost CL for the creation of that item only. Or provide access to higher-level item-creation only through incantations/rituals. Etc. Imho, that sort of thing makes the items a bit more 'magical'.

the_orc_within said:

@MiilouSuede: Here's a link to a WotC Rules of the Game article on item creation basics. Looks like item CL is also the minimum CL for the creator of that item. It's not explicitly stated in the rules that I can find (not in the SRD, at least), but it does seem to be the "semi-official" assumption. And that does seem to be the assumption that went into the E6 (and I presume other 3.5e) stuff.

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That's exceptionally helpful, thanks! My only questions regarding that would involve those items on the list that are above CL 6 like the Boots of Haste (CL 10) and Bottle of Air (CL 7). How do we determine that they fit in?

Are items like Amulet of Mighty Fists that state multiple versions (+1 through +5) going to have a CL 5 no matter what? The Pearl of Power also has a CL 17, is it also going to be consistent? I'm sure it's not, because it fits on the list (but once again, I need to know why).

Why aren't items like Amulet of Mighty Fists (+2) or Pearl of Power (3rd) on the list when their creator requirements state they can be made by level 6 characters?

If you do want to power things up in E6, maybe consider using feats to ensure PCs are deep into epic 6th level territory before they start whipping up powerful items. As is, the rejiggering of "Forge Ring" into "Wondrous Rings" already does this to some extent; similar ones for other items could easily be patched in, as you suggested. Alternatively, you could use something that effectively boosts CL for the purposes of item creation only. Frex, (and these are just off-the-cuff brainstorm examples, with no analysis!):
[sblock]
Accomplished Item Creation [Item Creation]
Prereq: 3 item creation feats, Knowledge(Arcana) 9 ranks
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL9th for which has all other requirements. This caster is also considered 9th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.

Expert Item Creation [Item Creation]
Prereq: 5 item creation feats, including Accomplished Item Creation; Int 19+
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL12th for which has all other requirements. This caster is also considered 12th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.

Master Item Creation [Item creation]
Prereq: 7 item creation feats, including Expert Item Creation; Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks; Int 21+
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL18th for which has all other requirements.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.
[/sblock]
Another option, and imho a bit more flavorful, you could add on additional requirements, like a magical "blueprint" that must be research/discovered for each item which (effectively) boost CL for the creation of that item only. Or provide access to higher-level item-creation only through incantations/rituals. Etc. Imho, that sort of thing makes the items a bit more 'magical'.

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Awesome ideas. I'm trying to go as traditional as possible with E6, and I think some of my earlier ideas where due to a misunderstanding of the rules. But I'll keep those in mind.

As far as the list goes, I don't vouch for anything on it. It's compiled from a couple other lists posted online (in this very thread, perhaps?)-- so I make no guarantees! But i suspect it was made by looking at spell levels rather than CLs-- and thus might not be 100% correct! (I'll insert that in my post, in fact.)

As I understand it (from that article), the item CL is the CL of the creator. The listed item CLs are the default lowest CLs possible for that item, and thus represent a minimum requirement for the creator; however, a caster of a higher level can create that same item at any CL from the default item CL up to his own CL if it's advantageous to do so (eg, for range, save DC, etc). For bonus-granting items, the CL of the item typically scales with the caster's level as well, except that they might have a minimum CL: this is the 3x (or sometimes 2x) rule.

So an Amulet of Mighty Fists: it obeys the 3x rule, but has a default CL5th (its minimum), so a +1 is CL5th (the min, and also the lowest creator level), a +2 is CL6th, a +3 is CL9th, and so on. And so, technically, even a 1st level Pearl of Power is CL17th and can't be created by a lesser caster! Is it logical? :shrug: That's your call.

Also, I'll just point out that the Rules of the Game article above was just first of five or six in the "Making Magic Items" series. There may be clearer info in there to pore over. Or maybe not. And also recall that technically it is RAW that magic items frequently don't follow the rules, often for balance reasons.

Honestly, I'd just play it by ear (that's what I do ) and not try to anticipate every corner case before the campaign gets going. The lower-power items usually aren't game-breakers anyway. That's one of the nice things about E6, imho.

the_orc_within said:

Looks like item CL is also the minimum CL for the creator of that item.

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Bah, WOTC has flip flopped on this issue so many times from the FAQ to their various official updates. I would just go with your gut on this one.

Stalker0 said:

Bah, WOTC has flip flopped on this issue so many times from the FAQ to their various official updates. I would just go with your gut on this one.

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the_orc_within said:

Honestly, I'd just play it by ear (that's what I do ) and not try to anticipate every corner case before the campaign gets going.

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My sentiments exactly!

Stalker0 said:

Bah, WOTC has flip flopped on this issue so many times from the FAQ to their various official updates.

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I wasn't aware of that.

I would just go with your gut on this one.

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Looks like it, heh.

didn't have the patience to pour through all 36 pages, so I'll just ask:

Has there been any discussion of economies with this system?
As I see it, the size and scale of economies in this system would be greatly reduced. As such, stuff like GP-limit would necessarily need to be adjusted.

Thoughts?

1) Items that require a caster level 7 or 4th level spells (or higher) don't exist
2) When I played I threw the demographic/economic rules out entirely, and just made my items and NPCs and put them into the world.
3) For a game like Eberron with E6, I'd have an active market for scrolls and potions but double the costs for permanent items.

Really, it's up to you, but if you want to capitalize on the feeling of setting fidelity that E6 can give you, then you should pick your method, tell it to the players, and stick with that throughout the campaign.

1) yeah, that one is pretty obvious (though it never hurts to reenforce the point)
2) that should probably work -- it's not like magic items are just going to be falling out of the sky. I just didn't know if anyone had developed anything "hard-and-fast" (guess not)
3) I'll probably keep that to the cities -- I want to keep the villages and such fairly mundane, What use do dirt farmers have for magic (from the farmers' PoV)?
I'll envision a homebrew setting that has a bit of a Conan/LotR/EotW type of feel. I'm reminded of that bit from the old AD&D books: "Inform those players who have opted for the magic-user prefession that they have just completed a course of apprenticeship with a master who was of unthinkably high level (at least 6th!)" -- that just makes me smile.


Thanks for the feedback.

Prestige Classes in E6

Hello,

I am planning for an upcoming E6 game and some of my players-to-be told me they'd like to take a level or two of prestige classes, even within the few class levels you get within E6. We discussed this a bit, I showed them some feats to gain additional class powers, but in the end I realized they didn't like it that much. The problems seemed not to be the feats per se but the change in the progress mechanic to become somewhat bland (just feats, nothing more).

Now I started to dig through all the former E6 threads here on ENWorld to see if someone already boiled prestige classes down to 1-3 class levels, but far from being finished I decided to just ask you people here first. Something like this already been done?