E6: The Game Inside D&D
fireinthedust
Explorer
`The point of E6 for me is keeping the math simple. I want to make up, say, 20 dungeons and spread them around the world. The PCs can research each one, find it, and finish it whenever they wish: the challenges won't be too different, especially if most of the trash monsters are orc-level critters, and the bbeg's can be whatever level they need to be. A 9th level monster is going to challenge them anywhere from 6+0 to 6+10 at least. And the traps, especially logic-focused ones, will always get them.
Adding higher bonuses to the characters is kinda against the point. I don't want to have my dragons wearing slippers of spider climb and cloaks of protection (as it just looks silly to describe them), I want to use the stat block out of the bestiary/mm. I like to imagine that the original creatures are balanced against 6th level characters. Giving too many bonuses means re-doing the math for every creature and encounter. You might as well have a regular game up to 20th, at this rate.
Adding higher bonuses to the characters is kinda against the point. I don't want to have my dragons wearing slippers of spider climb and cloaks of protection (as it just looks silly to describe them), I want to use the stat block out of the bestiary/mm. I like to imagine that the original creatures are balanced against 6th level characters. Giving too many bonuses means re-doing the math for every creature and encounter. You might as well have a regular game up to 20th, at this rate.
Werebat
Explorer
See, to me, the main thing is keeping the top-tier goofiness out of the campaign. Maybe "goofiness" isn't the right word, but it does FEEL that way to me.
That being said, I see no reason to block any items from an E6 game, provided the spells that they emulate are 3rd level and below. Why not drop the caster level requirement for crafing magic items (WotC did, depending on which official you ask)? You add a lot of fun variety and not anything particularly unbalancing.
One thing I did stick with was the level limit for "plus" enchantment of weapons and armor. +2 is the limit for what PCs can craft or buy, but a legendary weapon forged by the gods (or even just "the giants of old") might be +3 or higher.
Again, the game is what you want it to be. For me, opening the doors to some more low-powered magic items isn't really problematic.
And as I pointed out, even if you DON'T, you'll still have a problem with overgearing. The wizard or party UMD-er can always buy more wands, etc.
- Ron ^*^
That being said, I see no reason to block any items from an E6 game, provided the spells that they emulate are 3rd level and below. Why not drop the caster level requirement for crafing magic items (WotC did, depending on which official you ask)? You add a lot of fun variety and not anything particularly unbalancing.
One thing I did stick with was the level limit for "plus" enchantment of weapons and armor. +2 is the limit for what PCs can craft or buy, but a legendary weapon forged by the gods (or even just "the giants of old") might be +3 or higher.
Again, the game is what you want it to be. For me, opening the doors to some more low-powered magic items isn't really problematic.
And as I pointed out, even if you DON'T, you'll still have a problem with overgearing. The wizard or party UMD-er can always buy more wands, etc.
- Ron ^*^
A major fix for magic items would be to allow craft wondrous item to be more flexible. 3e's rules for magic item creation were really weird, you can't craft a magical ring at 6th level but you can craft a wondrous item that does the same exact thing but doesn't take up an item slot. Wonky.
I'd suggest having 3 feats; craft wondrous item, craft magical arms and armor, and brew potion. Just make the ability to scribe scrolls part of the wizard class.
I'd suggest having 3 feats; craft wondrous item, craft magical arms and armor, and brew potion. Just make the ability to scribe scrolls part of the wizard class.
I strongly agree with the second paragraph and I think the +3 sword forged by the giants of old is kind of cool. But I admit that one ft he things that attracted me to E6 was the low power of the magic items. This reduces the Christmas tree effect (leaving only the flavorful strength booster, for example) and means that at "High Epic" the players will focus on expendable items.
But a higher magic campaign might be an interesting middle course.
VanceMadrox
First Post
Hey all,
I recently stumbled across E-6 and I think it'll be very much to my liking.
My biggest issue with it is that I've switched whole-heartedly to Pathfinder and for Pathfinder E-8 seems to work better. There are lots of classes that get suitable capstone abilities at 8th level. The real issue is with Clerical domains though. Some domains grant powers at 6th and some at 8th. Using E-6 would discourage players from using domains whose powers don't kick in till 8th and that's not something I want.
What I'm looking for are specific spells/feats/issues with E-8 versus E-6. From what I can see most of the game changing spells are 5th level not 4th. I can see a few spells that may be too powerful (Black Tentacles, and Confusion for one). The bulk of 4th level spells don't seem like they'd be an issue though.
I also understand the challenege difference. A squad of 1st level town guardsmen would have a much harder time with an 8th level character versus a 6th. In any game I run though any guardsman who'd been one for a few years would be at least 2nd level possibly 3rd. Would this help alleviate this issue?
When I run a game using this I'm inclined to use the leaning up approach. I think my ideal is E-8 with Epic/Prestige feats allowing access to abilities that would normally be available to 10th level characters. This would include casters being able to get 1 5th level spell each though the spell would be subject to DM approval.
Any thoughts?
I recently stumbled across E-6 and I think it'll be very much to my liking.
My biggest issue with it is that I've switched whole-heartedly to Pathfinder and for Pathfinder E-8 seems to work better. There are lots of classes that get suitable capstone abilities at 8th level. The real issue is with Clerical domains though. Some domains grant powers at 6th and some at 8th. Using E-6 would discourage players from using domains whose powers don't kick in till 8th and that's not something I want.
What I'm looking for are specific spells/feats/issues with E-8 versus E-6. From what I can see most of the game changing spells are 5th level not 4th. I can see a few spells that may be too powerful (Black Tentacles, and Confusion for one). The bulk of 4th level spells don't seem like they'd be an issue though.
I also understand the challenege difference. A squad of 1st level town guardsmen would have a much harder time with an 8th level character versus a 6th. In any game I run though any guardsman who'd been one for a few years would be at least 2nd level possibly 3rd. Would this help alleviate this issue?
When I run a game using this I'm inclined to use the leaning up approach. I think my ideal is E-8 with Epic/Prestige feats allowing access to abilities that would normally be available to 10th level characters. This would include casters being able to get 1 5th level spell each though the spell would be subject to DM approval.
Any thoughts?
Werebat
Explorer
Dimension Door is also a game changer, although some supplements include a 2nd level spell that does almost the same thing so far as escaping grapples is concerned.
Why not just lower the domain boosts to 6th level? If that's your only issue, it seems like a simple fix. Or, have them kick in when the PC reaches 6+5 or 6+10 feats?
- Ron ^*^
Why not just lower the domain boosts to 6th level? If that's your only issue, it seems like a simple fix. Or, have them kick in when the PC reaches 6+5 or 6+10 feats?
- Ron ^*^
VanceMadrox
First Post
It's not just domains, that was one of the bigger reasons though. The domain powers are balanced for 8th level. Giving them at 6 doesn't seem right. And requiring they use feats for them after 6th still would encourage people to simply take other domains I think.
There's also abilities several other classes. There's also huge animal wild shape for druids, improved uncanny dodge for rogues, damage reduction for barbarians and lots of other thing I would want to include from 7-8.
Beyond that though I've looked magic items and there's a LOT of caster level 9-10 items that I would want in a world. Bags of holding, flaming swords, carpets of flying, crystal balls. These are all faorly staple fantasy items. I could take the "created by gods" approach but personally I like the idea that mortal hands could potentially make this item, albeit it'd have to be a very high level caster.
There's several 9-10th level abilties for classes to that I would want as capstones/epic feats. While I could go for E6 leaning up toward 9-10, I think E8 might work better.
The only real disadvantage I see to E8 is a few of the 4th level spells. On the whole most of them are fine. I don't have a problem ith Dimension Door. EPIC Wizards should be able to teleport away imo. And it doesn't present the same scry & die problems Teleport does. I'm ok with scrying too. Solid fog is nerfed in pathfinder. Ditto with Divine Power. Black Tentacles and Reincarnate might have to be left out. Overall though there aren't a lot of offenders.
Doing it with E8 leaning up would also allow me to have spellcasters who are able to cast a 5th level spell once or twice a day. This allows such things as the Witch who can turn you into a frog. Or the enchanter who can control your mind. Personally this is something I like.
There are several other little things too.
The leadership feats requires level 7.
Lesser geas works on 7th level and lower. This means that EPIC characters would be immune and I like the diea of some people being so powerful that the spell doesn't function on them.
Really other than a few spells I don't see why E6 is much better than E8.
There's also abilities several other classes. There's also huge animal wild shape for druids, improved uncanny dodge for rogues, damage reduction for barbarians and lots of other thing I would want to include from 7-8.
Beyond that though I've looked magic items and there's a LOT of caster level 9-10 items that I would want in a world. Bags of holding, flaming swords, carpets of flying, crystal balls. These are all faorly staple fantasy items. I could take the "created by gods" approach but personally I like the idea that mortal hands could potentially make this item, albeit it'd have to be a very high level caster.
There's several 9-10th level abilties for classes to that I would want as capstones/epic feats. While I could go for E6 leaning up toward 9-10, I think E8 might work better.
The only real disadvantage I see to E8 is a few of the 4th level spells. On the whole most of them are fine. I don't have a problem ith Dimension Door. EPIC Wizards should be able to teleport away imo. And it doesn't present the same scry & die problems Teleport does. I'm ok with scrying too. Solid fog is nerfed in pathfinder. Ditto with Divine Power. Black Tentacles and Reincarnate might have to be left out. Overall though there aren't a lot of offenders.
Doing it with E8 leaning up would also allow me to have spellcasters who are able to cast a 5th level spell once or twice a day. This allows such things as the Witch who can turn you into a frog. Or the enchanter who can control your mind. Personally this is something I like.
There are several other little things too.
The leadership feats requires level 7.
Lesser geas works on 7th level and lower. This means that EPIC characters would be immune and I like the diea of some people being so powerful that the spell doesn't function on them.
Really other than a few spells I don't see why E6 is much better than E8.
fireinthedust
Explorer
Magic items: there are lots of solutions. You could have ancient cultures where this stuff was possible. You could have some epic monsters, who have high caster levels, make this stuff. A Rakshasa offering bags of holding to its minions is a temptation for PCs. Locations and artefacts also come to mind to allow this stuff. And, as always, they can find them in the horde of a Dragon, or a vault of dwarven gold.
There isn't an issue with E8 that I can think of, except that you're that much higher level. Monsters like Orcs are no longer a challenge, and you need something else to step in as the common minion. Orcs with class levels, for example, works but is more work for you. Look less at player abilities and more at the creatures around them. Look at the skill bonuses for how far they can, for example, jump (tall buildings in a single bound?). As long as the math works, that's great. And if it works for your group, so much the better. It's just that you'll be using a higher tier of monster a lot sooner. Those BBEGs will have access to some of the "goofiness" of the higher tiers, especially as you get to e8+20. So it's less what they can do, and more the world around them that I'd point out.
I'd still play a game like that, tho. Could be fun, and PCs get a level or two of a PrC if they want.
Werebat
Explorer
You're free to do what you like of course. Many people prefer E8.
I would just lower the req for Leadership back down to 6th, or maybe make it an epic feat.
I wasn't talking about having the domain ability cost a feat, I meant give it to them for free but not until 6+5 or 6+10. So they still get it but not until they reach the equivalent of 8th level.
However, abilities above 6th level CAN be given out as epic feats.
Here's how I work it in my campaign:
At 6th level, every character decides if they want to be a "gestalt" character or if they want to declare a capstone class.
Gestalt characters can use epic feats to get class abilities in any class they have at least one level in, that they could have acquired if they had taken 6 levels in that class (for example, an increase of +1 to BAB, caster level (including spells known/per day), +1d6 sneak attack, Evasion, etc). Eventually they will have all the powers of a gestalt character (wizard/rogue, ranger/barbarian, etc).
Characters with a capstone class (which will include all characters with only one class) instead get three "capstone feats" which grant them abilities usually reserved for higher levels in that class. For example, a wizard might get two (DM-approved) 4th level spells added to his spell book, and the ability to cast 1 4th level spell per day (plus any bonii from high Int), while a monk might get a "bump" in unarmed damage. I have three of these "capstone feats" written out for every class, so players know what will be available; again, you can find them here if you look, or I'd be happy to repost if you wanted.
- Ron ^*^
I would just lower the req for Leadership back down to 6th, or maybe make it an epic feat.
I wasn't talking about having the domain ability cost a feat, I meant give it to them for free but not until 6+5 or 6+10. So they still get it but not until they reach the equivalent of 8th level.
However, abilities above 6th level CAN be given out as epic feats.
Here's how I work it in my campaign:
At 6th level, every character decides if they want to be a "gestalt" character or if they want to declare a capstone class.
Gestalt characters can use epic feats to get class abilities in any class they have at least one level in, that they could have acquired if they had taken 6 levels in that class (for example, an increase of +1 to BAB, caster level (including spells known/per day), +1d6 sneak attack, Evasion, etc). Eventually they will have all the powers of a gestalt character (wizard/rogue, ranger/barbarian, etc).
Characters with a capstone class (which will include all characters with only one class) instead get three "capstone feats" which grant them abilities usually reserved for higher levels in that class. For example, a wizard might get two (DM-approved) 4th level spells added to his spell book, and the ability to cast 1 4th level spell per day (plus any bonii from high Int), while a monk might get a "bump" in unarmed damage. I have three of these "capstone feats" written out for every class, so players know what will be available; again, you can find them here if you look, or I'd be happy to repost if you wanted.
- Ron ^*^
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