Nested Arrays

rgordona · Sep 27, 2007

Nested Arrays have been discussed before but I think it is worth having a formal position so:

Proposal: Nested Arrays are not permitted in Living Supers.

Nested Arrays are where a power within an array is itself an array. I believe that nesting arrays is legal according to the RAW but it can lead to very complex character builds, also if taken to extremes it can give significant point savings on characters with very large arrays.

However there are some builds where nested arrays appear to be both thematic and appropriate specifically I am thinking about those with Metamorph and multiple Alternate Forms, but there may be others. I don't believe that banning Nesting makes anything impossible but it certainly makes things more expensive.

Characters with Nested Arrays: Circe; Martin/Magus, Mecha Musume, Million Masks

Hand of Vecna · Sep 27, 2007

I don't think multiple Alternate Forms would be nested arrays (arrays within arrays), it'd be an array of containers.

rgordona · Sep 27, 2007

eg See Mecha Musume:

There are 4 alternate forms, Tank, Sub, Shuttle, Fighter. The Tank Form contains an array, Hand Cannon. I think the other forms contain arrays as well.

So it is an Array of Containers and the Containers then contain Arrays.

Rystil Arden · Sep 27, 2007

I think there are plenty of times that nested arrays are viable, perfectly reasonable, and the right thing to do. I've created pregens for M&M one-shot con games where some charatcres have slightly-nested arrays where appropriate, and it works fine.

Thats said, I agree that Martin has a lot--it's hard to read. I have it rewritten to be a Variable magic that includes all that and more. Costs fewer points and has more options.

Also, pretty clearly, no fair system would ever apply an ex post facto effect on characters. Or at least, I know I wouldn't want to be part of one that did.

Hand of Vecna · Sep 27, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
Thats said, I agree that Martin has a lot--it's hard to read. I have it rewritten to be a Variable magic that includes all that and more. Costs fewer points and has more options.

Not sure a VP would fit her concept. Well, Shapeshift, maybe.

Rystil Arden said:
Also, pretty clearly, no fair system would ever apply an ex post facto effect on characters. Or at least, I know I wouldn't want to be part of one that did.

D&D 3.5 did. Well, sorta.

I would think it would happen, if the new ruling came from issues that arose after seeing an approved character in action. House Rules (and even Official Rules Changes) do come about after seeing wonky things in play and realizing "no, that needs to be changed."

Rystil Arden · Sep 27, 2007

Hand of Vecna said:
Not sure a VP would fit her concept. Well, Shapeshift, maybe.

D&D 3.5 did. Well, sorta.

I would it to happen, if the new ruling came from issues that arose after seeing an approved character in action. House Rules (and even Official Rules Changes) do come about after seeing wonky things in play and realizing "no, that needs to be changed."

I would it to happen, if the new ruling came from issues that arose after seeing an approved character in action. House Rules (and even Official Rules Changes) do come about after seeing wonky things in play and realizing "no, that needs to be changed."

Maybe if it came across in play (and then with the player's agreement, which should usually be obvious if it had problems in play), but you see how it can look quite authoritarian if you have a rug pulled out from under someone over theoretical concerns. It's likely that you can ruin the character's entire concept (Martin would be fine with a Variable Array, so no worries there, but looking at Mecha Musume, she would be totally ruined that way, and what she's doing seems pretty reasonable to me). Then again, I'm not a judge, so in the end, I don't get to vote on this. I don't know about LS, but for the other two living worlds, in which I am a judge, we do consider ourselves to have the mandate of the people (in other words, we try not to vote for a proposal if there is dissent from the players), so hopefully we will have at least that for consideration.

Hand of Vecna · Sep 27, 2007

To the immediate issue at hand, I AGREE with the proposal. While nested Arrays may be appropriate for a few concepts (though I cannot readily think of any, but just because I cannot think of any at the moment doesn't mean there aren't any), I do agree that it can lead to very complex character builds & can give significant (Munchkin-y so) point savings on characters with very large arrays/nests. I feel that eliminating this possibility (and saving Judge headaches) at the expense of the loss of a few concepts is fair.

Rystil Arden · Sep 27, 2007

Hand of Vecna said:
To the immediate issue at hand, I AGREE with the proposal. While nested Arrays may be appropriate for a few concepts (though I cannot readily think of any, but just because I cannot think of any at the moment doesn't mean there aren't any), I do agree that it can lead to very complex character builds & can give significant (Munchkin-y so) point savings on characters with very large arrays/nests. I feel that eliminating this possibility (and saving Judge headaches) at the expense of the loss of a few concepts is fair.

So what about the flip-side? Mecha Musume has huge arrays nested as alts, but what if you just have one tiny alt in an otherwise normal alternate power.

For instance, let's say you had a Mystic who looked like this:

Spirit Speaking--
-Speak to the Air Spirit:
*Some stuff that is always true when speaking to the air spirit
*Air Control OR Blast
-Speak to the Fire Spirit:
Etc

Or to use Sierra as an example, she has a big one with a lot conserved and then a Blast/Strike alt depending on if she's in melee

Hand of Vecna · Sep 27, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
So what about the flip-side? Mecha Musume has huge arrays nested as alts, but what if you just have one tiny alt in an otherwise normal alternate power.

For instance, let's say you had a Mystic who looked like this:

Spirit Speaking--
-Speak to the Air Spirit:
*Some stuff that is always true when speaking to the air spirit
*Air Control OR Blast
-Speak to the Fire Spirit:
Etc

Or to use Sierra as an example, she has a big one with a lot conserved and then a Blast/Strike alt depending on if she's in melee

Those are still alternate powers within alternate powers, arrays within arrays. Tiny or large, I vote that they should not be allowed.

Rystil Arden · Sep 27, 2007

Hand of Vecna said:
Those are still alternate powers within alternate powers, arrays within arrays. Tiny or large, I vote that they should not be allowed.

I know that it is--I'm just pointing out that a minor change like that would not lead to a complex build or cause a headache for anyone as well as giving some examples of where it seems natural.

Nested Arrays

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