Compiled info on upcoming classes & races

Sadrik said:

Should there be a voodoo, chakra, zen, or any other similar old world mysticism power source too?

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Not really, no. I just don't think there's enough material there. Some third party can do it, sure, but not WotC.

BTW, I would not feel cheated if my monk had psionic power source or if my samurai had a martial power source etc.

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You may not. Others may.

WotC is more likely to split them apart, becuase that means more books.

Sadrik said:

Body control: Graft weapons, stretch your arms, form a weapon from your hand, absorb energy, become as light as a feather

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This would be intriguing for a defender. Very "Claw of the Vampire/Bite of the Wolf/Biofeedback" etc. Their powers relate to changing their body to toughening it up, growing larger, etc.

Rechan said:

You may not. Others may.

WotC is more likely to split them apart, becuase that means more books.

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I wouldn't because the moment the Psychic Warrior came out, I saw a class that was better at being a monk than the monk was. It became even more of that case once the Swordsage came out.

Also I don't like there being a separate power source "Asian" because I think it's stupid. Because if there's an "Asian" power source, then why isn't there an "Arabian" or "African" power source?

As I'd like most of my Asian characters represented by classes that are more culturally neutral, like Fighters and Rogues and Warlocks. Only the monk needs to be it's own class, and it's power source can very much be a part of other power sources out there like martial or psionic or divine.

Kobold Avenger said:

I wouldn't because the moment the Psychic Warrior came out, I saw a class that was better at being a monk than the monk was. It became even more of that case once the Swordsage came out.

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That's really nice, but there are so many things that people want the Monk to be:

Kung fu interior mystic (See: 3e)

Non-mystical, non-magical unarmed attacker.

A divine-related class. A psionic class. A ki class. A martial class.

A striker, a controller. And you're saying a defender.

There's too much that people expect from the monk for it to all go into one thing. A decision must be made. And it's easier to split the Monk up into different areas than to try and do it either one way or cram them all together.

As to the "asian" power source, you have any idea how much complaining has gone on since the Monk was in 3e? How it didn't "Fit" the "Fantasy Genre" that most people wanted? Same thing. The genre or flavor didn't fit. So the monk/ninja/samurai gets put in its own little area because the "I don't like oriental flavor in my fantasy" is too vocal a group to ignore.

You're dealing with different vocal fanbases that expect different things, and thus the biggest groups will get what they want, not individuals that want it all.

I'm not telling you what I want. I'm telling you how it's going to be. I will bet you cash that market research reflects the above, and what I said here is how WotC is going to do it. No matter individual preferences to the contrary.

For a generic western fantasy setting the monk class most certainly doesn't fit, but the monk as a "cloistered cleric" does - of course so would an order of 'cloistered religious wizards' or any other class. Monk is a motiff, a style, a collection of fluff. It is not an iconic class outside of "shaolin monk" which is very specifically asian.

So what is the classic "shaolin monk"? Not much more than a striker specializing in unarmed attacks and culturally distinct weapons and a penchant for meditating when not punching things. Honestly, I can represent that with the rogue and a selection of alternative talents and class abilities: a lightly (or non-) armored, high-damage, highly-mobile martial striker.

What's a ninja but a thiefy/assassiny rogue with really good PR? A samurai, minus the visual fluff, cultural references, and ultra-strict code of honor is basically either a fighter or a paladin. A shogun is a warlord perhaps. A wu-jen is a wizard. I don't see a need for new classes for these cultural-specific types, just careful RP and at worst some new talents and alternative class abilities to mimic some specific functions (like being amazing at punching and kicking for instance).

katahn said:

What's a ninja but a thiefy/assassiny rogue with really good PR? A samurai, minus the visual fluff, cultural references, and ultra-strict code of honor is basically either a fighter or a paladin. A shogun is a warlord perhaps. A wu-jen is a wizard. I don't see a need for new classes for these cultural-specific types, just careful RP and at worst some new talents and alternative class abilities to mimic some specific functions (like being amazing at punching and kicking for instance).

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These are the reasons why there shouldn't be an "Asian" power source.

katahn said:

What's a ninja but a thiefy/assassiny rogue with really good PR? A samurai, minus the visual fluff, cultural references, and ultra-strict code of honor is basically either a fighter or a paladin. A shogun is a warlord perhaps. A wu-jen is a wizard. I don't see a need for new classes for these cultural-specific types, just careful RP and at worst some new talents and alternative class abilities to mimic some specific functions (like being amazing at punching and kicking for instance).

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What's a psion but a wizard with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a druid but a cleric with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a paladin but a fighter with a few different power selections and fluff changes?

Rechan said:

What's a psion but a wizard with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a druid but a cleric with a few different power selections and fluff change? What's a paladin but a fighter with a few different power selections and fluff changes?

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While you're right, there's a difference of degree.

Maybe rogue is too broad, and needs to be narrowed to include less ninja. But as it stands, there's a lot in there, and if you took it out, the rogue would be anemic.
Maybe fighter is too focussed, and needs less blademaster. But, again, as it stands, those aspects are what make the fighter awesome.

Wizard, however, is defined as "the guy who does magic" -- so it's clear there's room to chop around in there. And, indeed, we've seen that they've done some work to make the roles different, and the outcry at this ("nerfing wizards' charms?! outrage outrage outrage!") points out just how much overlap they have had before.

In many ways, 3e psions really were just wizards in funny hats. Now they're not. And?

And material on the ninja have a lot to do with special, quasi-magical things. The ghost step "Turn invisible" or "turn ethereal" is about right in terms of the mythology associated with them. Yes, there's a lot of rogue there. But there's also the mystical powers. Sure, a "Rogue + Some new abilities like a Quivering Palm" could do it.

So could "Unarmed fighter + Mystical tricks" function for a kung-fu artist.

At the same time, a paladin could be achieved with: Base fighter guy + Lay on hands and this or that.

I don't see WotC taking the "Base + Stuff" approach.

Andy Collins, in the Tome podcast, said that the class design philosophy for 4e is "What does this character Bring to the Table in combat that no one else can do at all". He specifically pointed at the monk and said "Well, he can jump around and climb on stuff. Well the wizard can fly; jumping around isn't so great. So aside from having a nice story, what's the point of playing a monk?"

Therefore, each class introduced has to be able to do something that No One Else can do, at the same time as it fits into the role paradigm of "where you fit in the party". So the Monk, if it's going to exist, must do something that the other classes can't. Same with the Ninja. This is why enchantment was held for psionics, so that they'd have something the wizard can't do. Same with Necromancers, et al.

Dollars to donuts, I'll bet the monk will have stunning ability, and tricks like "Move six squares. You can make a base attack against three opponents in that line, and you do not receive OAs for it", because no one else can do things like that yet.

Rechan said:

As to the "asian" power source, you have any idea how much complaining has gone on since the Monk was in 3e? How it didn't "Fit" the "Fantasy Genre" that most people wanted? Same thing. The genre or flavor didn't fit. So the monk/ninja/samurai gets put in its own little area because the "I don't like oriental flavor in my fantasy" is too vocal a group to ignore.

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Try 1e, that's where the Monk first appeared.

Samurai gets the least amount of things making it different from any other class, and therefore doesn't deserve to have it's own class.

Sohei was basically a Paladin/Monk/Barbarian.

Shaman will probably appear again as a "Primal" power source class rather than an "Asian" power source. The 4e shaman will probably take some things both from the OA Shaman and the Spirit Shaman, that are so similarly named.

Shugenja, had really nothing differentiating it from any other spellcasting class, expect it to get it's stuff taken by the Sorcerer and Divine Controller or the suggested "Elementalist" class.

Wu Jen or (Wu Ren if we're using modern Chinese romanization) was basically a wizard with a bit of elemental/druid thrown into the mix. Expect them to be somewhere in one of the "Primal" classes, getting their stuff taken from them.

Monk, does have enough things to make it an unique class on its own. But it should be grouped with other power sources. In some ways they're more mind over matter, so they could be Psionic, in other ways they're a lot about skill so they could be Martial, they're also related to a religious background so they could be Divine.

Ninja, does have a few unique things, and they're best grouped with the "Shadow" power source, combined with the Assassin and Shadowdancer.