Are you an expert on Kender?

Hi there!

We are working on the Kender article at Wikipedia as part of a current mediation process.

The current task is to find sources for the article. The most needed type of sources are what is known as “reliable secondary sources”. That is, we need the sort of thing not published by TSR or WotC, not written by Hickman or Weis or any other current or former employee of TSR or WotC; something published in a gaming magazine not affiliated with TSR/WotC (such as old White Dwarf, Pyramid, etc) is good, and something even better would be like a book review from New York Times or some other major publisher. Most websites are no good, unless they can be considered independent reliable sources of information.

An important secondary task to that would be to find any sources to use as citations for the information currently in the article, or for information that is not in the article but should be, or if you have any suggestions about good places to find references.

I would ask that you not post directly to any of these mediation pages, to keep traffic between the involved parties mentioned on the main mediation page, and to avoid the typical sorts of longstanding arguments that have arisen on Wikipedia over these fictional subjects; these sorts of things can kill the mediation process. I would prefer that you post either here in this thread, or at the D&D Wikiproject talk page or at the Kender article talk page and I will copy and paste your relevant ideas to where the involved parties can more easily access them.

Thanks for any help you are able to give!

Good luck on that; the secondary sources that Wikipedia is clamering for sounds a lot like the sort of stuff T$R/Williams would crack down on hard back in the day. Even now, it's possible WotC might try to protect IP and copyrights. Most of the sources for this stuff are going to be TSR/WotC or their employees, past/present. The magazines or book reviews aren't likely to have that kind of information.

Some of the people who are demanding "secondary sources" are probably just boneheads (i.e. that moron Gavin Collins) who don't want D&D articles at all, but I suppose it could help if you make more reasonable minds aware of the reality that there probably won't be many secondary sources to draw upon because of zealous copyright/IP protection efforts by TSR. Then again, holding pop culture stuff to the same level of scrutiny as more academic topics is totally asinine. No one is going to be writing a paper on kender.

I don't think a lot of in-depth information for kender is really necessary for this page, though. Just a brief description, contrasting them with the more traditional hobbit, and the development of the kender by the Dragonlance design team should be sufficient.

well yeah, legitimate complaints aside...

I figured I'd bring it to the best place to ask if you want obscure knowledge about D&D stuff. So, that said, anyone know of any good sources? I know it might be a challenge, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

OK now, the thing is, perhaps in a lot of ways even more important than fining the kinds of sources that some people want, is to find sources for all of the information that is actually in the Kender article right now.

For example,

in the ''Tales'' trilogy, the dwarves state that when the Greygem came to Krynn, its chaotic magic transformed an elven army into the first kender and a dwarven army into the first Gnomes.

Click to expand...

Any idea what "Tales" trilogy this line is referring to?

Tales of the Twins, I think. Time of the Twins, War of the Twins, Test of the Twins.

Wait, I'm wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_novels#Tales_Anthologies

I could be very wrong, but isn't the Tales trilogy the first set of anthologies? (Magic of Krynn; Kender, Gully Dwarves and Gnomes; and Love and War)? Though I went to Wikipedia to jog my memory on that, so this becomes rather circular! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_novels#Tales_I

I don't have copies of those books here (I once had them - think they're in a cupboard at my parents' house!) so I can't check I'm afraid.

I guess you've posted this at www.dragonlanceforums.com and the other Nexus-y places?

pedr said:

I could be very wrong, but isn't the Tales trilogy the first set of anthologies? (Magic of Krynn; Kender, Gully Dwarves and Gnomes; and Love and War)? Though I went to Wikipedia to jog my memory on that, so this becomes rather circular! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_novels#Tales_I

I don't have copies of those books here (I once had them - think they're in a cupboard at my parents' house!) so I can't check I'm afraid.

I guess you've posted this at www.dragonlanceforums.com and the other Nexus-y places?

Click to expand...

Actually I haven't, although that does make sense doesn't it? I came here first, because this place is familiar to me and people here generally know what they're talking about.

RangerWickett said:

Wait, I'm wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_novels#Tales_Anthologies

Click to expand...

That sounds right, but I don't want to guess.

BOZ said:

OK now, the thing is, perhaps in a lot of ways even more important than fining the kinds of sources that some people want, is to find sources for all of the information that is actually in the Kender article right now.

For example,

in the ''Tales'' trilogy, the dwarves state that when the Greygem came to Krynn, its chaotic magic transformed an elven army into the first kender and a dwarven army into the first Gnomes.

Click to expand...

Any idea what "Tales" trilogy this line is referring to?

Click to expand...

This particular bit is from the short story "Wanna Bet?" by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, as published in the novel Kender, Gully Dwarves, and Gnomes, the second book of the first Tales Anthology series.

However, whoever wrote that line misremembered. In the book, Palin relays the mythology that Reorx cursed several humans to become the first gnomes, and it was the Graygem's magic that later transformed a group of gnomes into both the first kender and the first dwarves.

As an aside, were any official stats for half-kender ever published? I thought they were in one of the Sovereign Press books, but I can't seem to find them now.

you da man, oh kitten demon lord of fire.