How can we add non-combat crunch without mangling the rules?

nothing to see here · Jun 12, 2008

I love the base assumptions of D&D. I understand that giving eveyrbody something fun to do in combat is important.

I also deeply miss having the ability to make non-combat focussed characters using the rules-set. If you want to create the fast-talking con-man, or super-investigator or any other non-combat adventuring hero, you still end up with a charater sheet that is 80% about how you kick ass.

So how do we fix this, without starting off a terrible chain reaction.

My idea is to include two fixes.

1) Add a LOT more utility powers to every class to cover combat and non-combat situations alike.

2) Provide an option (through a feat perhaps) that allows characters to "trade down" encounter and daily attack powers for more utility powers.

Something like

NON-COMBAT ROLE
You may not hit as hard in a fight, but you prove your worth in many other subtle ways.
BENEFIT: You can swap any encounter attack power you possess for a utility power of lower level. You can swap any daily attack power you possess for two utility powers of lower level.

I'm not sure how elegant this is. Would love to hear other ideas.

keterys · Jun 12, 2008

I'm not at all convinced that daily powers are twice as valuable as encounter powers. Anything but.

Why not put non-combat stuff in an entirely different bucket? Ie, like how rituals work.

ideasmith · Jun 12, 2008

All powers, utility powers definitely included, are about combat.

A noncombat role character would get fewer or no powers, and something else to compensate, possibly rituals or skills/feats.

nothing to see here · Jun 12, 2008

ideasmith said:
All powers, utility powers definitely included, are about combat.

A noncombat role character would get fewer or no powers, and something else to compensate, possibly rituals or skills/feats.

All utility powers can be USED in combat, but they are not about damaging enemies. There is a difference. If you don't want to be all about doing damage, you should have an option other than ignoring 80% of your class features.

Look at some of the mobility-focussed rogue powers -- there is no reason whey cannot be used outside of combat.

The trade off between daily attack powers and utility powers is that the character is directly reducing their damage output, to increase their abilities in non-damaging ways.

As for rituals, they are nice, but the casting times, as written make them more of player initiated plot device than an accessible character action.

There has to be a middle ground between having to attack someone and having a 10 minute casting time.

infax · Jun 12, 2008

I agree with Keterys.

Mucking about with the established powers doesn't seem like a good idea. Neither does reducing combat abilities in favor of non-combat abilities.

I would suggest creating non-combat powers and setting them side-by-side with combat powers. Don't make a player choose between combat and non-combat, just give everyone something to do out of combat.

Furthermore, instead of requiring everyone to have something to do in a stealth or investigative scene, give those characters that invest in those areas chances to improve allies to have them along in the scene.

I may try and post a couple of suggestions.

I would like to know what kind of non-combat scenes you like your games to focus on, "nothing to see here".

nothing to see here · Jun 12, 2008

infax said:
I agree with Keterys.

Mucking about with the established powers doesn't seem like a good idea. Neither does reducing combat abilities in favor of non-combat abilities.

I would suggest creating non-combat powers and setting them side-by-side with combat powers. Don't make a player choose between combat and non-combat, just give everyone something to do out of combat.

Furthermore, instead of requiring everyone to have something to do in a stealth or investigative scene, give those characters that invest in those areas chances to improve allies to have them along in the scene.

I may try and post a couple of suggestions.

I would like to know what kind of non-combat scenes you like your games to focus on, "nothing to see here".

WEll, a lot of 'social' challenges for a start. I think the non-combat encounter rules in the DMG are okay for the space they are given but that does not solve the point that a player who wants to EXCEL as a fast-talker (...or a tracker...or a burglar...) only has a couple of options (trained skills, skill focus etc) to refine their ability to contribute in that manner.

Yet that same player at the same time, level after level after level, whether it fits their concept or not, is required to learn new ways to beatdown monsters.

Sure a character can simply forego using their attack powers for flavour reasoning -- but i would much rather allow for a more fun option than a uncompensated "self-nerf".

It's a character customization deficiency as much as it is any deficiency in the rules. Like I said in my first post -- as a default rule --making every character have fun attack options in combat is absolutely the right call...unfortunatley hardwiring eveyr character to HAVE to have multiple attack powers in combat leaves something to be desired.

thegrizz · Jun 12, 2008

I too was a bit bummed to see Non combat go almost completely out the window. However I can understand why they did it, after all non combat is a very open place compared to non combat. With that said I think that non combat should always remain a viable part of the DnD experience and feel that there are ways to use both the existing rules frame and also to create a new rules frame specifically for non combat encounters.

My one problem with using the existing rules frame is that most of the powers have direct and linear results. I feel that a non combat system should be as non linear as possible to allow for the fact that non combat actions often have several possible occurences.

This leans me toward creating a whole new "compatible" rules frame to coincide with the fourth edition. I think a good place to start would be to determine if most non combat abilities are available to any character regardless of race and class or if the two should be considered?

For example lets say I want to create a fast talker. Well the obvious assumption is that I would need to be charismatic, however could a Paladin realistically choose this ability? I think so, it would take a good story, but I think so. However there are those who would say absolutely not.

My thoughts anyway

mattdm · Jun 12, 2008

infax said:
Mucking about with the established powers doesn't seem like a good idea. Neither does reducing combat abilities in favor of non-combat abilities.

I agree with this from a balance perspective. However, from a game as role-playing vs. tactical minis perspective, it would be ideal if, when logically relevant, skill in an out of combat area could come in handy in combat and vice versa.

ideasmith · Jun 12, 2008

nothing to see here said:
All utility powers can be USED in combat, but they are not about damaging enemies. There is a difference. If you don't want to be all about doing damage, you should have an option other than ignoring 80% of your class features.

There is there is indeed a difference between 'non-combat focused' and 'non-damage focused'. When you wrote "non-combat focussed", I assumed that you meant 'non-combat focussed'.

nothing to see here said:
Look at some of the mobility-focussed rogue powers -- there is no reason whey cannot be used outside of combat.

The trade off between daily attack powers and utility powers is that the character is directly reducing their damage output, to increase their abilities in non-damaging ways.

Some Utility Powers can indeed be used out of combat. For that matter, some Attack powers can be used as combat. Some Guns can be used as levers. That doesn't change what they were designed for.

nothing to see here said:
As for rituals, they are nice, but the casting times, as written make them more of player initiated plot device than an accessible character action.

There has to be a middle ground between having to attack someone and having a 10 minute casting time.

This I agree with.

Edit: One my reply to the third quote, what I agree with is the final sentence. Rituals do seem to be performed by the character.

Silverblade The Ench · Jun 12, 2008

I agree with infax!

My suggestion:

1) Everyone gets gets 2 non-Combat (*) skill of their choice, plus 1 per Int modifier bonus.
IMHO that should also apply to Languages, but that's another matter.
-Use the Lists from 3.5 or other sources.

2) Everyone gets 1 encounter and one daily non-Combat (non-PHB) power skill.

3) To make a less combative character, a 4th edition Expert Class, a sage, smith etc here's my sugegstions:

SILVERBLADE'S 4th ED EXPERT CLASS
- No Weapon Proficiency at all, except in trade tools, and note, most weapons are not the same as trade tools!
Smith = warhammer and maul, forester bill hook (if added), battleaxe and handaxe are suitable.
Weaponsmiths DO have to be able to use weapons to make them well, so they should have proficiency in any weapon they actually have the skill to create, but note below.

- 8 skillls of their choice, plus Int modifier.

- 5 hp/level

- A bonus of +2, two two chosen skills, to reflect their passions.

- Weapon crafting is split into types: axes; flail, mace, staff, light blade, heavy blade, polearm; crossbow; bow; spear, swords; pick, hammer. Each is a seperate crafting skill. A fine swordsmith can make daggers, he's just not as good at it if it's not his "thing".

- 5 healing surges per day, +Con modifier, or, if they do heavy manual work, 8 Surges per day.

Please note that At Wills are COMBAT abilities, they must not be used for non-combat or it would wreck the balance totally

Encounter and Daily abilities would all reflect trade skills, effectively, they'd all be utilities! At high level, "expert" class folk should be able to do magical/miraculous things with their abilities, the wonderous "magisters", Da Vincis etc, of their era.

Taking the Enchant magic Item Ritual power, and Ritual Spellcasting feat should allow creating magic items.

(*) basically, for PHB characters, any skill except those in the PHB. For non-combative characters, some skills would be suitable: Arcana, Nature, Healing, Thievery (to make clockwork, traps), etc

How can we add non-combat crunch without mangling the rules?

nothing to see here

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keterys

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ideasmith

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nothing to see here

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infax

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nothing to see here

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thegrizz

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mattdm

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ideasmith

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Silverblade The Ench

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