Multiclassing Feats & Powers

Hi, I hope someone can help me with this stuff. I'm trying to figure out the multiclass powers.

On pg 208 in the PHB it has the info for multiclassing. It reads
"Multiclass feats allow you to dabble in the class features and powers of another class. You might be a fighter ..."

A little further down it states:
"A character who has taken the class specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for meeting prerequisites of taking other feats and qualifing for paragon paths. ... These feats can qualify you for other feats: for example a warlock who takes Sneak of Shadows has the rogue sneak attack class feature, which means he meets the prerequisites for the backstabber feat."

There is nothing else on this page that states anything about powers. My thoughts are that once I take a multiclass feat I can choose a power from either class when I level and rewarded with another power.

There are the power swap feats on the next page which states I can swap a power that I already know for a power from the second class as long as equal or lower level.

So to sum up:
If I level up to level 5 in one class taking feats and powers within that class. When I get 6th level and take the multiclass feat I gain the skill training stated and the power stated. From that point on to level 30 I can take feats and powers from either class (assuming I have prerequisites). If at some point I take a power swap feat I trade one power I know for one power of equal or lower level for the other class.

It states that I can take feats, because of the second sniplet I believe I am correct in my thinking.

Can anyone confirm this or prove it wrong? I would need actual quotes from the rules if possible.

Thanks in advance.

zookeeper said:

There is nothing else on this page that states anything about powers. My thoughts are that once I take a multiclass feat I can choose a power from either class when I level and rewarded with another power.

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The base multiclassing feats do not give you access to your second class's powers. Only the skill training, limited form of class feature, and access to feats and paragon paths.

There are the power swap feats on the next page which states I can swap a power that I already know for a power from the second class as long as equal or lower level.

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These feats are how you gain access to powers from multiclassing.

So to sum up:
If I level up to level 5 in one class taking feats and powers within that class. When I get 6th level and take the multiclass feat I gain the skill training stated and the power stated. From that point on to level 30 I can take feats and powers from either class (assuming I have prerequisites). If at some point I take a power swap feat I trade one power I know for one power of equal or lower level for the other class.

Click to expand...

Correct except that you do not gain access to powers from your second class without taking the power swap feats, or later paragon multiclassing.

It states that I can take feats, because of the first sniplet I believe I am correct in my thinking.

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You are correct that you can take feats, but that's it. Your "first sniplet" is talking about the multiclassing system as a whole, which includes the class-specific multiclass feats and the power swap feats.

Can anyone confirm this or prove it wrong? I would need actual quotes from the rules if possible.

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Note that the actual benefits of the base multiclassing feats for the different classes do not say you get to take powers from your other class. Just feats and paragon paths.

Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE]

OK - so basically I can spend 4 feats (multiclass, and 3 power swap feats) and end up with a (lets say fighter/rogue) that has 1 extra trained skill, 1 watered down power (usually an at-will cut to an encounter or daily), 3 powers I swapped out from the fighter, and a bunch of feats that I took. Although you may be correct that does not even sound correct, why would anyone multiclass if all you can ever get is 3 powers.

If you multiclass with wizard you get 3 spells?

The first sniplet about multiclass feats in general does state you can dabble in the class features and powers of another class. It does not mention you have to take the power swap feats to get those powers.
(This is the confussing part.)

Where is the info about not having access to the powers from the second class? That would help the confussion, I haven't seen it.

zookeeper said:

OK - so basically I can spend 4 feats (multiclass, and 3 power swap feats) and end up with a (lets say fighter/rogue) that has 1 extra trained skill, 1 watered down power (usually an at-will cut to an encounter or daily), 3 powers I swapped out from the fighter, and a bunch of feats that I took. Although you may be correct that does not even sound correct, why would anyone multiclass if all you can ever get is 3 powers.

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You can get more through paragon multiclassing, and you can freely swap out those powers every time you level up, so you can actually get access to a lot more powers--just only three at once.

If you multiclass with wizard you get 3 spells?

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At any given time, yes. 4E's multiclassing is about building "a fighter with some wizarding tricks," not the old-school "fighter/mage."

The first sniplet about multiclass feats in general does state you can dabble in the class features and powers of another class. It does not mention you have to take the power swap feats to get those powers.
(This is the confussing part.)

Click to expand...

That's right, with multiclassing feats, you can dabble in the class features and powers of another class. There are two types of multiclassing feats: Class-Specific feats and Power Swap feats. Class-Specific feats allow you to dabble in class features, Power Swap feats let you dabble in powers. Note that the first sniplet is in the general overview of all multiclassing feats, not the section on Class-Specific feats.

Where is the info about not having access to the powers from the second class? That would help the confussion, I haven't seen it.

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There is no rule saying that Class-Specific feats don't give you access to powers. There's also no rule explicitly saying that Toughness doesn't let you turn into the Incredible Hulk. Feats let you do what they say they let you do, and not a one of the Class-Specific feats says you can choose powers from your second class as part of the leveling up process.

I've got a question.

If you do paragon multiclassing-- in place of paragon abilities-- you get to do another swap of an encounter, utility and daily power.

In normal level up, you occasionally get to swap out powers for higher level powers.

Are you allowed to swap out the paragon multiclass swaps for higher powers as you level up?

At first blush I would think yes. But then normally you can't swap paragon powers. On the other hand, normally you'd have to go outside the paragon path for powers to swap with. Not so for multiclass powers.

Yadda. yadda.

What do you guys think? Or is there another existing official answer or an obvious statement in the rulebooks that I've missed? Easily could have missed something given my track record today.

AD

lkj said:

I've got a question.

If you do paragon multiclassing-- in place of paragon abilities-- you get to do another swap of an encounter, utility and daily power.

In normal level up, you occasionally get to swap out powers for higher level powers.

Are you allowed to swap out the paragon multiclass swaps for higher powers as you level up?

At first blush I would think yes. But then normally you can't swap paragon powers. On the other hand, normally you'd have to go outside the paragon path for powers to swap with. Not so for multiclass powers.

Yadda. yadda.

What do you guys think? Or is there another existing official answer or an obvious statement in the rulebooks that I've missed? Easily could have missed something given my track record today.

AD

Click to expand...

Pretty sure the answer is no--the retraining rules specify that you can swap out one power "from your class." Paragon multiclassing is giving you powers from another class, and that class is always identified as your "second class."

Kordeth said:

Pretty sure the answer is no--the retraining rules specify that you can swap out one power "from your class." Paragon multiclassing is giving you powers from another class, and that class is always identified as your "second class."

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The way I saw it over on the WotC board and from the CS response was that you can essentially "refresh" your feat, however. When you retrain you can replace "Novice Power" that you took at 4th level with Novice Power at the level you are now, thus allowing you a higher level power from your other class.

edit: nevermind you were talking about the paragon multiclassing... not feats, my bad. still getting used to these rules

Allenchan said:

The way I saw it over on the WotC board and from the CS response was that you can essentially "refresh" your feat, however. When you retrain you can replace "Novice Power" that you took at 4th level with Novice Power at the level you are now, thus allowing you a higher level power from your other class.

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Right, but that's not the extra powers from paragon multiclassing, that's the power swap feats.

My feeling is that you're locked into the levels specified in the paragon multiclass path, so that the paragon multiclass powers must be a 7th level or lower encounter, a 10th level or lower utility, and finally a 19th level or lower daily, plus the swapped out at-will. The encounter, utility, and daily powers swapped out with the novice, acolyte, and adept feats can be trained up, as long as you respect the power level slots you have (see p143 of the DMG for a handy chart)

Kordeth said:

You can get more through paragon multiclassing, and you can freely swap out those powers every time you level up, so you can actually get access to a lot more powers--just only three at once.

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So if all you can ever have is 3 why multiclass? If this is correct they would have been better off (IMHO) saying there is no such thing as multiclassing anymore. (Not even with feats.)

At any given time, yes. 4E's multiclassing is about building "a fighter with some wizarding tricks," not the old-school "fighter/mage."

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This I understand, but I think even if your an apprentice mage you should be able to learn more than 3 tricks. Your a very poor magician if you put on a show with only 3 tricks in your show.
Plus if your selecting powers from the mage side, your losing on the fighter side so it would balance out.

That's right, with multiclassing feats, you can dabble in the class features and powers of another class. There are two types of multiclassing feats: Class-Specific feats and Power Swap feats. Class-Specific feats allow you to dabble in class features, Power Swap feats let you dabble in powers. Note that the first sniplet is in the general overview of all multiclassing feats, not the section on Class-Specific feats.

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OK - Class Specific feats give you a watered down power (or class feature) usually an at-will cut to daily or encounter, and training in another skill, (sometimes a specific skill). IMO - not worth a feat, but if we were able to select powers from that class then it's worth it.

Power-Swap feats let you swap 3 powers (1 each), IMO also not worth giving up a feat, but combined (4 feats) with access to other powers would be worth it.

There is no rule saying that Class-Specific feats don't give you access to powers. There's also no rule explicitly saying that Toughness doesn't let you turn into the Incredible Hulk. Feats let you do what they say they let you do, and not a one of the Class-Specific feats says you can choose powers from your second class as part of the leveling up process.

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Under the class-specific feats it states "A character who has taken a class-specific feat counts as a member of that class for meeting prerequisites for other feats and paragon paths."

Yet they do not give the channel divinity class feature of the cleric that is a prerequisite for most of the cleric feats, they do not grant you the rangers Archery or Two-Bladed fighting style class feature which is a prerequisite for every one of the ranger's paragon paths.

So there are obviously some mistakes, maybe it was an oversight that selecting powers from both (after time you multiclass) was omitted, and that the power-swap feats let you swap any power previous to taking the multiclass feat.

Only having 3 powers from your second class, is meaningless. You would be better (IMHO) saying there is no such thing as multiclassing (or dabbling if you perfer).