Teleportation / Fey Step in three dimensions

ladycass · Jun 24, 2008

We are having some conflict with how to handle the teleport powers like fey step within combat and general play. Can you fey step into empty space? If you are at the bottom of a 10 foot hole where a 5 foot sqare is open on top can you fey step out even though you are unable to see any of the 2 dimensional sqares surrounding the opening? (Assume the hole is a small room and you can move away to see an area 10 feet above one of the squares but not the square itself.) The general concern is teleporting "above" squares/enemies and falling onto them. Is teleport meant to function only in 2d or could you go 25 feet strait up? Obviously falling rules apply if are are able to. Under 3d in DMG they really only address swiming and flying.

If you can not draw a line of site from the floor of the square the character is occupying to the floor or the square he wishes to enter do you allow them line of sight if they could see one of the "upper 3d corners" of that space?

How are you handling these issues in your games?

James McMurray · Jun 24, 2008

ladycass said:
We are having some conflict with how to handle the teleport powers like fey step within combat and general play. Can you fey step into empty space?

Sure, make your fall check.

If you are at the bottom of a 10 foot hole where a 5 foot sqare is open on top can you fey step out even though you are unable to see any of the 2 dimensional sqares surrounding the opening?

You don't need to see the floor, just the square (or in this case cube) you're aiming for.

The general concern is teleporting "above" squares/enemies and falling onto them.

What combination of powers makes this a concern? On the face of it it just looks like a flavorful charge attack.

If you can not draw a line of site from the floor of the square the character is occupying to the floor or the square he wishes to enter do you allow them line of sight if they could see one of the "upper 3d corners" of that space?

AFAIK the line of sight rules don't mention needing to see the floor of a square. If they did, you wouldn't be able to see anyone standing behind a 3' wall.

How are you handling these issues in your games?

By not having an Eladrin.

In our first level game there's an Eladrin, and we've used line of sight teleportation in the past for other games (like 3.x). It's always just been "eyeball it, decide what's funnest, and move on." Well, almost always. Anything could trigger a rules debate if one of our resident rules lawyers in feeling fiesty.

Kaffis · Jun 24, 2008

Without my books handy, either the Eladrin power, or the teleportation keyword, specify that you cannot teleport to a square you couldn't normally end your move at. I don't typically allow my characters to "move" on squares that are not at ground level. So unless they're *also* flying, no teleporting 10 feet above somebody/something.

As for whether they can use the top corners of the "ground level" square adjacent to the pit for line of sight -- I'd let them "draw" the hole along any grid plane, project themselves and the target square (cube?) onto it, and use the cover rules to draw lines. If they can determine that the square they want to move to doesn't have more than cover (so no superior or total cover), they can see their destination (basically, see it sufficiently well to determine that it's unoccupied and clear).

Basically, the cover rules are designed using two dimensions in mind, so you have to specify that they have to use some other set of only two dimensions -- the two top corners along the near top edge don't count as two clear corners for cover.

Mengu · Jun 24, 2008

If they have LoS to the square (or cube), and could normally end their movement in the square (or cube) they can teleport to it.

XXXXXXXX
AOOOOOO
XXOOOXX
XXOOOXX
XXOOOXX
XXBOOXX

In this case, whether this is a birds eye view on a dungeon map, or crossection looking at a pit, I would have no problem letting B teleport right next to A.

Nikosandros · Jun 24, 2008

Kaffis said:
Without my books handy, either the Eladrin power, or the teleportation keyword, specify that you cannot teleport to a square you couldn't normally end your move at. I don't typically allow my characters to "move" on squares that are not at ground level. So unless they're *also* flying, no teleporting 10 feet above somebody/something.

I think that the only restriction is that you must be able to fit in the target space without squeezing.

ladycass · Jun 24, 2008

No there is nothing in the rules about line of sight having anything to do with the floor. However, if you look at all of the illestrations of "how to determine line of sight" they are certianly not 3 dimensional and none of them use anything *but* the four corners of the floor of the square. Thus if you can imagine a character under that square and unable to have a line of sight to that square they may still be able to see the open air 10 feet above the square they would like to end up in. The situation may also arise where they have "line of sight" to one corner out of 8 if we consider the square a cube. In the examples in the book they do *not* draw any lines of sight to sides or top of this 5ft square cube. They only use the "floor" side to determine if one square has line of sight to another. This may not take into consideration angles of view and situations where battle is not on a flat 2d surface (such as when a character has fallen into a hole through said 2d surface)

I see nothing about not being able to teleport into a square where you normaly could not end your move. This would be helpful if it exists. I do see that you can not teleport to someplace where you would have to squeeze. Unfortunatly mid-air does not qualify as a squeeze.

The situation has already come up where the Eladrin wants to teleport above a foe and land on it. If teleport into thin air *is* something that is allowed I will have opportunity attack provoked by such a manuver as well as falling rules of course. The question then becomes since he can't end his move in the square with the enemy where *does* he end his movement after the fall into them. He would be prone, would this knock them prone as well?

I can imagine a lot of other issues coming up with this mid-air teleporting due to the player's personality. I don't want to penalize creativity but I also don't want to abuse the racial ability.

lukelightning · Jun 24, 2008

I don't see why they can't teleport into the air... it's a great opportunity to try out your acrobatics skill!

Destil · Jun 24, 2008

Kaffis said:
Without my books handy, either the Eladrin power, or the teleportation keyword, specify that you cannot teleport to a square you couldn't normally end your move at. I don't typically allow my characters to "move" on squares that are not at ground level. So unless they're *also* flying, no teleporting 10 feet above somebody/something.

I don't see why you can't end your move in midair... gravity just isn't done with you yet.

Heck, a crashing faller has no choice in the matter until falling damage intervenes.

James McMurray · Jun 24, 2008

I'd let him do it, with a difficulty and DC based on what he hopes to accomplish. Whatever the results are, they need to be weaker than another class's At Will powers.

If he wants to apply a status effect to the enemy (like prone) then he'll need to hit with an attack and won't get to deal damage. Damage + Prone is the purview of powers.

If he wants to deal damage, then he's making a normal attack with a +1 higher ground bonus. If he's willing to take another d6 damage and can teleport higher, he'd also get the +1 from charging.

If he wants it to be a surprise maneuver and generate combat advantage, it needs to be combined with a Bluff check the round before (probably with a +2 bonus unless the enemy has some reason to suspect a death from above teleport). Alternatively, he could combine the teleportation with a stealth check.

I try to allow everything as long as it sounds plausible. The trick is in making sure it isn't too powerful. If he wants to do crazy stuff because he wants some grounds from which to argue huge bonuses, don't allow it. If he wants to do crazy stuff because it's cool, fit it into the framework of the game's existing rules as best as possible, and award XP bonuses instead of instakills.

weem · Jun 24, 2008

For my games, I don't think I would allow coming out of a pit with Fey Step in this case.

It's based on teleportation, which says "you must be able to see your target destination" - the space they wish to occupy is not visible. Sure, they can see the very edge of the space they wish to occupy, but in order to occupy THAT space (the very edge of the square) it would require them to squeeze in effect, and since you can't port to a place where you must squeeze to fit, that doesn't work. And I wouldn't buy the "well, my destination is the air" bit either.

They could argue that their destination is the ceiling above the area they wish to be in - effectively letting them fall to their destination... That's something I MIGHT allow for laughs, but I'm not really sure about it.

It's called Fey Step... not Fey Fly n' Fall. It's a natural ability of theirs allowing them to step immediately from one place to another. The fact that they need to see where they want to port to implies to me it is a straight shot, and any manipulation of it allowing multiple angles of movement goes beyond the purpose of the ability. It wasn't meant (imho) to allow them to move to point A and fall to point B in effect allowing 2 movements for the price of 1, etc.

Anyway, that's what I would tell my players at this moment if it came up -- not that I couldn't be persuaded otherwise, but I'm just not seeing it in anyway but that.